Moderator: ofonorow
Lone Dog wrote:If lp(a) is a form of LDL cholesterol, when you have a cholesterol test does it register in the LDL figure?
If you have high LDL does that mean you have high lp(a) - and vice versa?
I read somewhere, in the Track Your Plaque book, I think, that 17% of heart attack patients have high lp(a). That doesn't sound like a high figure, I would have expected it to be higher than that. Perhaps the PT works best for those people and others would not get so much benefit from it?
Oxford meta-analysis of 27 large studies (09/04/2000) shows that people with high Lp(a) are 70% more likely to have a heart attack or stroke.
If you take VC alone, without lysine, will it eventually do the same job, reverse your therosclerosis? I'm assuming that it will, because you are needing to give your body orthomolecular substances which it can use for repair & also detoxification in the case of VC, so it would work, but not as quickly as the full PT. Of course, there isn't any reason not to take lysine.
Basically I wondered how similar lp(a) is to LDL and whether the mechanisms by which VC cleans arteries with cholesterol will also clean arteries with lp(a) in them.
Lone Dog wrote:Thank you, Owen, I appreciate your help with these questions.
With regard to the type of cholesterol involved in plaque formation, is there any corroboration for Dr Rath that it is lp(a) rather than LDL?
I'm wondering if we could put lysine aside for the moment, and consider what degree of reversal of atherosclerosis is possible using VC alone? Also, I believe the Shutes had results using vitamin E, and Lester Morrison with chondroitin sulfate. All without lysine.
Two and one half years ago, (1991) I was in a meeting of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States. I wa s in the hallway of the academy building and another member of the academy came up to me. He said, Dr. Pauling, " I have heart disease. My brother, my father both died of heart attacks. I am a biochemist but I was retired from the National Institutes of Health several years ago for disability because of my heart. I have had 3 by-pass operations, and I can't have any more by-pass operations. I like to walk, but I have trouble. After I have walked a little way I develop angina pectoris pain in my heart. If I take a nitroglycerin tablet, I can walk a little farther, and then I may have to take another nitroglycerin tablet." He went on to say," I have been taking vitamin C, 5 grams a day for several years because of your recommendation. Is there something else that I could do that would permit me to walk?"
I said, "I could make a suggestion, it has never been tried before. Take Lysine."
Well I didn't need to tell him what Lysine was, that it's an essential amino acid and you have to get around a gram a day to be in good health, and you get it in your foods, because he is one of the most distinguished biochemists in the United States, recipient of the National Medal of Science in the United States. So he said, how much shall I take? I thought, what do I know. I know that people get a gram or two in their food depending upon how much meat and fish they eat, that it's essential they have to get around one gram. It hasn't any known toxicity in animals or human beings. I said 5 grams, 5 grams a day. He thanked me.
A couple of months later he telephoned me and said its almost miraculous. I started taking a gram a day and 2 grams and so on. Within a month after I had reached 5 grams a day of Lysine in addition to my 5 grams of vitamin C, I could walk 2 miles without any nitroglycerin tablets or without any pain in the chest. He said he had cut down the amount of heart medicine he was taking in half. "It's almost miraculous," he said.
Another couple of months went by and he telephoned me and said that, "I was feeling so good the other day that I cut down a big tree in our yard, and was chopping it up for wood, and I was also painting the house, and I got chest pains", despite his 5 grams of lysine, so he said that he "went up to 6 grams of lysine and 6 grams of vitamin C and told me now "I am continuing chopping down, chopping up the tree and painting the house". And now a couple of years later he is still in fine health. [From the 1993 Linus Pauling Video on Heart Disease]
If lysine is the key, however, and lp(a) is found in plaque, it comes as a surprise that the PT doesn't work for some people, as surely if they took the recommended 6g of lysine per day that should take care of it.
...LDL particle size can very easily be seen as a marker for time spent in the blood (because this leads to loss of triglycerides to cells and to HDL, and acquisition of cholesterol from HDL, more oxidation and other modifications, all of which make LDL small and dense). Since excess time spent in the blood is primarily a function of poor LDL receptor activity, and since poor LDL receptor activity is by far and away the most definitively established causal risk factor for heart disease, it makes sense to first and foremost consider small dense LDL as a risk factor because it is a marker for poor LDL receptor activity and long time spent in the blood. Thus, there is no reason to assume that treatments that boost LDL particle size through any means other than promoting better LDL receptor activity or preventing oxidation will actually prevent heart disease.
- Chris Masterjohn, June 9, 2011 at 10:09 pm
...the LDL particle is a cargo ship. It is supposed to land at various docks to deliver over the goods. However, it is also supposed to protect the goods so that they are in good shape when the ship gets to the dock. However, there are often pirates at sea, and they may attack both the people at shore as well as the cargo ships. If they block entry to the dock, the ship cannot refuel or purchase more ammunition for defense. If the ship is thus left at sea, it runs out of ammunition and the pirates are then able to effectively sabotage it, ruin its goods, and purposefully plant explosives and release infectious diseases on the boat. Then, when it does get near shoreline, the folks at the dock catch illnesses and are caught in terrorist explosions. Thus, the immune system, like a navy and national guard, rescues the cargo ships that have been attacked (oxidized LDL), and quarantines them and any toxic factors released from them in something like a superfund site, where the surrounding community is protected as best as possible.
- Chris Masterjohn, June 10, 2011 at 4:10 pm
...the localization of plaques is clearly related to hemodynamic factors. In any species, to my knowledge, including humans and rabbits, plaques occur in areas of disturbed blood flow. Shear stress, caused by uninterrupted parallel blood flow, increases synthesis of nitric oxide which is a protective factor in the optimal range, and, probably more importantly, upregulates tight junction proteins which decrease the permeability of the vessel. It has been experimentally demonstrated for near 100 years that plaques occur where the blood vessels are most permeable, and that anything affecting the permeability causes a proportional affect in the degree of atherosclerosis. Inflammation, for example, causes a general increase in permeability and thus enhances atherosclerosis. Exercise should theoretically have the opposite effect, since it increases blood flow and thus shear stress.
- Chris Masterjohn, June 11, 2011 at 1:02 pm
http://thehealthyskeptic.org/the-healthy-skeptic-podcast-episode-11
LDL, HDL, and cholesterol are different and exclusive categories.
and since poor LDL receptor activity is by far and away the most definitively established causal risk factor for heart disease,
Once again you would not deign to glance at the materials I'm referencing. Seems you haven't read any of Cutler's work, and now deja vu all over again with this Masterjohn interview...ofonorow wrote:Huh? Are you sure you don't want to revise and extend your remarks? ( LDL and HDL are cholesterol.)
I have no reason to doubt you are correct in saying that. I saw no need for me to address it since you already had. No need to get you panties in a twist, Owen, if someone clarifies an important side-issue (in this case, the meaning of the word 'cholesterol'?) and doesn't talk about the main issue {in this case, Lp(a)}.ofonorow wrote:But his question (which you didn't address) is whether Lp(a) is included in the LDL number on cholesterol tests. The answer is yes.
Nope. That's what he wrote alright.ofonorow wrote:As far as what you hilighted, I hope you have quoted this fellow Chris Masterjohn out of context...
Time will tell Owen. Time will only tell.ofonorow wrote:...I hope you have quoted this fellow Chris Masterjohn out of context asis outlandish.and since poor LDL receptor activity is by far and away the most definitively established causal risk factor for heart disease,
Don't know yet. But I'm learning.ofonorow wrote:LDL receptor for what? Who has definitely established it, what ever it is, as "far and away" a causal risk factor for heart disease?
ofonorow wrote:And why is this posted in a thread devoted to Lp(a)?
Owen, has the lp(a) in plaque idea been confirmed by any other studies? I know Dr Rath was part of the team in the reference, but has their finding been confirmed by others?
http://internetwks.com/pauling/refs.html#R2The possibilities for the pathways by which Lp(a) enters the arterial wall and accumulates extracellularly are discussed on the basis of the present data and recent data published by other groups.
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