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 Urgent help needed! Young son has viral infection 
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Quote:
I was shocked when my baby got sick. I though I was doing everything right. I exclusively breastfeed, I eat right, take 5g Vit C, complex vitamin/mineral;

You didn't get this right - baby should get sick. Its not good if baby/toddler never gets sick because it might mean that his immune system is in low gear. The opposite is also true, because he has overrective immune system. The correct thing is, I believe, to get sick, with mild sympthoms, those lasting for few days and not interfering much with daily activities. Babies immune cells are still untrained.

Quote:
I check my Vit D blood level and it was normal

Normal was recently redefined. Its highly unlikely you have good D levels.

Your protocol is otherwise great, and I would keep it up. You did everything right, things will turn out OK, don't worry too much.

Quote:
What can I give him to stop vomiting? Also, what can help with his constipation (no poop since Monday)? He tried straining today, but nothing...

I don't know about vomiting, but for constipation you can give him yet more C or lactulose. However, I wouldn't push it since he is already at risk of dehydration [you might want to add some electrolytes in his water]. Its more or less normal for babies to skip even 7 days. You could try with dried plum tea.

Quote:
giving the baby every hour a tablespoon of uncooked wheat germ softened in milk. This small amount was miraculously retained and the vomiting completely stopped." (wheat germ is high in B vitamins and minerals) "

I wouldn't do this. Maybe at Adeles time it was OK, but now giving GMO gluten to babies is not a good idea. Bakers yeast in solids is good idea, or even rice bran (if its not gluten contaminated).

I would up coconut oil on your place. Its very light, easily digestible, anti-viral, anti-bacterial, anti-everything, ketogenic, so it will give baby energy and not give energy to oportunistic phatogens.

Don't worry about him not eating much, its normal thing and required for correct antiviral defenses. He will not suffer because of that since there is phenomena called "catch-up growth" in kids after disease.


Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:13 pm
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Update on my son's condition:

Fever - down to 99F (last dose of ibuprofen 2ml at 4pm yesterday)

Vomiting - not since last evening and he nursed a lot last night. I was trying to pull the breast away as I was afraid he would overeat and vomit, but he was persistent.

Jacquie wrote:
Did your pediatrician have any suggestions for reducing vomiting?


The only suggestion she gave me was giving small amounts of liquid often, which I tried to do.

Diapers - three extremely full wet diapers in the morning and a soft nice yellow color stool

Vitamin C - I was only able to give him about 500mg over night as he was nursing a lot and I didn't want to mix it with milk to keep it down, but I topped it of with the ginger/bay leaf/ lemon zest tea I made last night. Not sure what worked, but no vomiting so far (keeping my fingers crossed)

Sleep - he didn't sleep very well, was up almost every hour. I think now as he feels better his teething discomfort bothers him again.

majkinetor wrote:
The correct thing is, I believe, to get sick, with mild sympthoms,


The problem is that he was very miserable with a fever over 102 for 4 days. So I think his immune system is not strong enough, but I might be wrong

majkinetor wrote:
since he is already at risk of dehydration [you might want to add some electrolytes in his water].


With his wet diapers this morning, and nursing, i think dehydration is not a concern anymore. I was giving him pedialyte for electrolytes before, but looks like he doesn't need it any more

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majkinetor wrote:
Normal was recently redefined. Its highly unlikely you have good D levels.


I wouldn't be surprise. But I am taking cod liver oil now, so that should take care of Vitamin D and A to some extent.

majkinetor wrote:
I would up coconut oil on your place. I


I just started using it couple of weeks ago as I discovered the danger of vegetable oil I was using for roasting. Good thing is I love coconut, so it wouldn't be a problem for me to use it a lot.

gofanu wrote:
A baby whose stools are hard is almost always deficient in B vitamins and/or magnesium


This is not our case. His stool is soft all the time. Probably, kefir and yogurt give him some probiotics to keep things moving. (Only if it could work for mommy. I've been suffering from hard stool since the delivery. It was not even that bad during the pregnancy. I guess I'll give b6 a try)

gofanu wrote:
I have successfully eliminated a 1/2" dental abscess in 15 minutes with 5gm C, 1 gm panto, and 100mg B6, t

i wish I knew that. My brother in law just had a really bad one. Fortunately, my best friend's boyfriend is a dentist, so he cut it open and cleaned immediately.
gofanu wrote:
I found Adelle's books first, and still think they are the best.


I would definitely get her books. Looks like they could be a good addition to Pauling's protocol.
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So let me get it straight.
B-50 plus folic acid 1600mcg; magnesium, PABA, B3, B5 - 500mg, and B-6 (or B-6 only in stress/sickness).

I am a little confused as to how supplement iodine. Will it be Ok to paint some patches on the skin with iodine?

As to k/k2, Weston A. Price foundation recommends taking high vitamin cod liver oil (COL) together with high vitamin butter oil (BO) because Vit. A and D in COL work better with the presence of K2 called X-factor in BO

http://www.westonaprice.org/fat-soluble ... k2#synergy

The only problem is that high-vitamin oils are very expensive, running $40/bottle and more

http://www.greenpasture.org/public/Products/index.cfm

Is there a cheaper way to get K/K2 in a diet?
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Questions/Concerns

-Will it be safe for me to start Vitamins B supplementation while nursing or should I wait till my son weans?

-Besides Vitamin C and cod liver oil, was other supplements should I give to my 8 months old?

- Does Vitamin C irritate stomach and intestine? Dr Campbell-McBride (GAPS theory) states that vitamin C is damaging to the gut lining and shouldn't be taking as a supplement.

Quote:
I generally do not recommend ascorbic acid as it is an irritant to the gut lining. GAPS diet provides plenty of vitamin C in the food form (particularly when juicing is introduced). If you wish to take a supplement, it is better to have vitamin C in a whole natural form, such as acerola cherry powder.


http://gaps.me/preview/?page_id=32

-What is the best form of Vitamin C to take? I find AA powder dissolved in water doable (my only concern is irritation). How should I give it the baby (AA powder or sodium ascorbate)?

- Will not it be too much synthetic vitamins to take on a regular basis? Weston A. Price is against synthetic vitamins, just natural sources.

Thank you all again for the help!


Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:04 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
I just found this, related to diarrhea and vomiting :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754002/

Introduction of Routine Zinc Therapy for Children with Diarrhoea: Evaluation of Safety

It looks like its effective and very safe. I can confirm this as I give to my daughter 25-50 mg Zinc-Gluconate almost every day (25 normally, 50 when she has runny nose). Note that they talk here about elemental Zinc, not combined with vehicle. In Zn-Gluconate zinc mass is only 16%.

Quote:
The problem is that he was very miserable with a fever over 102 for 4 days. So I think his immune system is not strong enough, but I might be wrong

That means his immune system is strong and maybe even overreacts. I would start w-3 fish oil (not cod liver oil) supplementation every day. Around 500mg DHA/EPA is good on multiple levels, and you can't really do better thing for his brain as a side effect.

About your own constipation, try high animal fat diet for a change, if you didn't.

Quote:
Does Vitamin C irritate stomach and intestine? Dr Campbell-McBride (GAPS theory) states that vitamin C is damaging to the gut lining and shouldn't be taking as a supplement.

If true, then sodium acorbate or mineral ascorbates will deal with that, however, its not true, and gastric juice has very high amounts of vitamin C if its healthy. One of the first things to change with gastrointestinal pathology is vitamin C level.


Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:01 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
majkinetor wrote:
About your own constipation, try high animal fat diet for a change, if you didn't.


That is exactly what I am trying to do right now. I am incorporating full fat dairy, a lot of bone broth and meats, and am trying to avoid grains, especially wheat.
The results are different everyday and I can't figure out what works the best.

majkinetor wrote:
I would start w-3 fish oil (not cod liver oil) supplementation every day.

Why not cod liver oil? In addition to EPA/DHA in fish oil, cod liver oil has natural vitamin A and D.

I am using Sonne's Old Fashioned Cod Liver Oil No 5 (http://www.vitacost.com/Sonnes-Old-Fash ... 5-16-fl-oz)
1 teaspoon contains
EPA 440 mg
DHA 440 mg
Vitamin A 4000 IU
Vitamin D 400 IU

I have started my son on 1/2 tsp and will increase to 1tsp soon.


Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:58 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
kolganito wrote:
Fever - down to 99F (last dose of ibuprofen 2ml at 4pm yesterday)

Vomiting - not since last evening and he nursed a lot last night. I was trying to pull the breast away as I was afraid he would overeat and vomit, but he was persistent.

Diapers - three extremely full wet diapers in the morning and a soft nice yellow color stool

Not sure what worked, but no vomiting so far (keeping my fingers crossed)

Great! Keeping my fingers crossed, too.

kolganito wrote:
B-50 plus folic acid 1600mcg; magnesium, PABA, B3, B5 - 500mg, and B-6 (or B-6 only in stress/sickness).

Yep. One more thing to know about B3, it can cause flushing when you first start taking bigger doses. This goes away in a couple days to 2 weeks. Here's a description of it from the B3 expert (starting on page 8, labeled 153). I've been taking between 150 - 250 mg of niacin per day, and only had a small flush for a few days at the beginning.

kolganito wrote:
I am a little confused as to how supplement iodine. Will it be Ok to paint some patches on the skin with iodine?

You'll get some iodine absorption that way, but it's not very efficient. The cheapest way (per dose) to supplement is Lugol's Solution; the most convenient way is Iodoral tablets. Don't be afraid of the dose recommendations; they are based on sound science and long experience.

Iodine may cause some bromine detox symptoms. It's good to get the bromine out, but it can make you feel a little sick while it's happening. Don't be afraid that this will expose your son to bromine, as the breast is designed to concentrate iodine, and given the chance, will swap bromine out for iodine (dumping the bromine into the blood for peeing out) rather than allow any bromine in the milk.

kolganito wrote:
As to k/k2, Weston A. Price foundation recommends taking high vitamin cod liver oil (COL) together with high vitamin butter oil (BO) because Vit. A and D in COL work better with the presence of K2 called X-factor in BO

The only problem is that high-vitamin oils are very expensive, running $40/bottle and more

Is there a cheaper way to get K/K2 in a diet?

Absolutely. (That same brand is available at the same place as the Iodoral link, and they also sell a slightly different formulation.) Since you're familiar with Weston Price's X-factor, I assume you've read this? And while we're on the subject of vitamin K, it's always good to know this.

kolganito wrote:
-Will it be safe for me to start Vitamins B supplementation while nursing or should I wait till my son weans?

Yep. B vitamins are remarkably safe. Most of them have no known negative side effects. The couple that do are B3 (the flushing, which is not harmful, just relatively unpleasant) and B6, but only if you take it without the other B vitamins, and at very high doses (1000+ mg/day) for many months.

kolganito wrote:
-Besides Vitamin C and cod liver oil, was other supplements should I give to my 8 months old?

Make sure his D levels are between 40 - 60 ng/ml. If you can't afford to get tested by a doc, there's a relatively inexpensive mail-in test kit offered by the vitamin D council. It's safe to give him 1,000 IUs a day (per Dr. Michael Holick), even without knowing blood levels. The problem with cod liver oil is that if you take enough to get all your D, you'll get too much A.

kolganito wrote:
- Does Vitamin C irritate stomach and intestine? Dr Campbell-McBride (GAPS theory) states that vitamin C is damaging to the gut lining and shouldn't be taking as a supplement.

Rarely, an over-bowel-tolerance dose of ascorbic acid can be irritating on its way out. This happens to my dad (taking sodium ascorbate instead is the fix), but not me, my mother, or anyone else I've talked to. Otherwise, vitamin C is only beneficial to the gut lining (neutralizes toxins, reduces inflammation, etc.).

kolganito wrote:
- Will not it be too much synthetic vitamins to take on a regular basis? Weston A. Price is against synthetic vitamins, just natural sources.

While it's true that supplements can't fully compensate for a poor diet, it's also true that virtually NO diet/food sources in the 'modern world' is good enough to eliminate the need for supplements. The soil on most agricultural land is grossly depleted of minerals. Modern agribusiness raises animals in such poor conditions that milk, meat and eggs are comparatively nutritionally deficient. Food is shipped long distances, stored for long periods of time, and prepared in ways that further deplete vitamin levels. And then there's all the extra pollution and stress that our bodies are exposed to, raising our nutrient needs (especially for anti-oxidant vitamins, like C, but also for others).

Then there's the whole can of worms about the definition of 'synthetic' vs. 'natural'. Just because something was made in a lab doesn't mean it isn't bioidentical to what's in food.


Last edited by Jacquie on Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:10 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
If your Cod liver oil contains that amound DHA/EPA then its OK. On my bottle only vitamin D/A levels are stated and the same firm produces another one with only w-3.

Don't supplement Iodine now, after lactation, for the same reason as mentioned before - you don't want detoxing with lactation. Give kelp tablets to baby but use hi q ones as there is a risk of heavy metal contamination.

Niacin (B3) in sustained release formula is hepatotoxic, keep that in mind. Use imediate release if you supplement.

Are you on paleo diet ? If so, constipation is regularly reported on it and I believe its due to un-optimal diet or supplementation. I am on paleo diet without any such problem but I know its epidemic otherwise.


Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:53 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Jacquie wrote:
One more thing to know about B3, it can cause flushing when you first start taking bigger doses.

What about no-flush formulas or is it just a marketing tool?
Jacquie wrote:
The problem with cod liver oil is that if you take enough to get all your D, you'll get too much A.

Weston Price Foundation states that as long as the ratio of A to D in cod liver oil is at least 10:1, you won't overdose on Vitamin D. They recommend taking 2tsp of cod liver oil that provide 10,000IU of A and 1,000IU of D

http://www.westonaprice.org/cod-liver-o ... oil-basics

Jacquie wrote:
Since you're familiar with Weston Price's X-factor, I assume you've read this? And while we're on the subject of vitamin K, it's always good to know this.


I haven't read the pdf file. I was hoping to avoid vit K supplementation. Doesn't butter from grass fed cows provide enough vitamin K?
Jacquie wrote:
B vitamins are remarkably safe.


They might be safe, but will they cause the milk composition to change? Can I start to detox? When it come to my health, I am eager to try different recommendation, but I can't experiment with my son's health.
Jacquie wrote:
Make sure his D levels are between 40 - 60 ng/ml. If you can't afford to get tested by a doc, there's a relatively inexpensive mail-in test kit offered by the vitamin D council.

He has insurance, so it won't cost us anything to check his vit d level. We are going to the doctor on Monday, I'll ask to check. I am concerned about his iron levels too, although he eats meat every day.
Jacquie wrote:
Then there's the whole can of worms about the definition of 'synthetic' vs. 'natural'. Just because something was made in a lab doesn't mean it isn't bioidentical to what's in food.


I am more concerned about the additives in a pill form of the vitamins. I understand that supplementation is necessary, but if to take all the B vitamins (B-50, B-3, B-5, B-6, Folic acid, PABA), magnesium, vitamin K, vitamin D (am I missing anything?) in pills, you end up with 9 a day with a load of magnesium stearate and other additives. Is it safe?
Jacquie wrote:
I've been taking between 150 - 250 mg of niacin per day, and only had a small flush for a few days at the beginning.

So do I need 500mg or should I start with a low dose and increase it?

I am currently taking Rainbow light One a day prenatal Vitamins.
http://www.rainbowlight.com/Categories. ... 1835132d2f


Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:04 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
majkinetor wrote:
Give kelp tablets to baby but use hi q ones as there is a risk of heavy metal contamination.


Do you recommend any particular brand. Can I give him Lugol's Solution?
majkinetor wrote:
Are you on paleo diet ?

I am trying to incorporate GAPS diet (http://gapsdiet.com/GAPS_Outline.html, http://gaps.me/preview/?page_id=28). It is not recommended during lactation because of detox, I am just trying to incorporate some elements as I mentioned before.

I forgot to mention that in addition to cod liver oil that provide 400 IU of D, I give my son 1 drop of Carlson Vit D which provide another 400IU


Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:13 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Quote:
Can I give him Lugol's Solution?

I wouldn't. Its not easy to dose it, thats why we have Iodoral.

I use Swanson's Kelp.

GASP is some form of paleo diet, as far as I can tell.
Have a look here my post too see ideas about constipation. However, first finish lactation.


Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:34 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Jacquie wrote:
Well... this is true, but only for herpes viruses. Lysine interferes with a replicator that is specific to them. So, while lysine won't hurt you (it is an essential amino acid, after all), there isn't any evidence that it will kill any viruses except herpes viruses (it does work really well against herpes viruses, though. Even in other species, like cats).

There are about 8 kinds of herpes viruses that infect humans, including a couple that can cause flu-like symptoms. It's unlikely that any of these are what your son has right now, so it's probably not essential that you get lysine into him. It won't hurt him, but unless he has something like roseolovirus, it won't help, either.


Jacquie, I'm sure you mean well, but please don't be so dismissive of lysine, especially when you write in such an authoritative manner ! Yes, it is most well known as an agent to fight HSV, but it has also been theorised by The Rath Institute (Rath was Pauling's long-time partner), and to their minds proven, that it is active against a wide spectrum of viral challenges (http://www.drrathresearch.org/index.php ... infections). An example given on their website is against influenza (http://www.drrathresearch.org/index.php ... -influenza).

From personal experience, whenever I feel a cold developing I increase my AA and lysine and can quickly knock-out a viral attack.


Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:55 pm
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Interesting although Jacquie is right - I searched and found only studies for herpes virus, for instance:


http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/pr ... tNr=224164

I didn't find anything compelling on Rath's site. He uses:
Quote:
Summary: Nutrient mixture containing vitamin C, Green tea extract (EGCG ), amino acids : lysine, proline, arginine, N acetyl cysteine , selenium, and other essential natural components can directly decrease viral multiplication in infected cells and limit their spread by curbing enzymatic degradation of extracellular surroundings.


Here are the studies referenced

  • Suppression of influenza A virus nuclear antigen production and neuraminidase activity by a nutrient mixture containing ascorbic acid, green tea extract and amino acids
  • Inhibition of cellular invasive parameters in influenza A virus-infected MDCK and vero cells by a nutrient mixture
  • Effects of a nutrient mixture on infectious properties of the highly pathogenic strain of avian influenza virus A/H5N1
  • Alleviation of Histopathologic Effects of Avian Influenza Virus by a Specific Nutrient Synergy

and all are his own.

I agree that protocol is not that bad for flue, but I fail to see how specifically to claim L-Lysine to be beneficial. Rath claims that mechanism is via improved collagen strength, similarly to what Pauling claimed for cancer. I don't know where he got that viruses direct host cell to produce colagenases. If anybody has full access to mentioned papers we would be able to find out.

That contains lot of supplements while Owen commented that my own Rambo protocol is too complicated :)


Last edited by majkinetor on Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:41 pm
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Quote:
- Does Vitamin C irritate stomach and intestine? Dr Campbell-McBride (GAPS theory) states that vitamin C is damaging to the gut lining and shouldn't be taking as a supplement.

Quote:
I generally do not recommend ascorbic acid as it is an irritant to the gut lining. GAPS diet provides plenty of vitamin C in the food form (particularly when juicing is introduced). If you wish to take a supplement, it is better to have vitamin C in a whole natural form, such as acerola cherry powder.


Coincidentally I am reading Dr. Campbell-McBride's GAPS book. Very interesting, she is extremely knowledgeable about gut flora. But I don't think her advice/knowledge of vitamin C is much better than the average doctor. I notice that you used the word "damaging" but she (a medically trained doctor, which means she was taught very little about vitamin C) uses the word "irritant." Because there really is no such thing as a "whole natural form" of vitamin C, and because everyone MUST ingest vitamin C to exist, I don't think this particular advice is justified. (In fact it is quite likely the autistic kids she developed the diet for would benefit from large amounts of vitamin C!) There are countless individuals who have taken large amounts of vitamin C for many years without apparent "damage" the to the gut or its lining. It is unfortunate that such a good book/program would make this kind of error.

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Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:58 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Although I agree with you Owen on this, didn't you say some time before that you got acid reflux or something similar after decades of pure ascorbic acid ?


Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:17 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Yes, the bottom of the esophagus can become raw, and adding sodium ascorbate seems to sooth it.

The GAPS author McBride is referring to the intestinal gut lining/flora (stomach and beyond) and its importance to good digestion and health

It would be interesting to know just how much ascorbic acid is absorbed into the blood stream via the stomach wall - perhaps making the gut flora issue moot.

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Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:29 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Of course V-C is a gut irritant but as we well know it takes a large amount more then the body can take in for it's need's to become a irritant. We call it! "BOWEL TOLRENCE!!"
This can be very little or a whole ton of it depending on the bodies needs or asborbion.

Hope everyone had a good Xmas! :lol:

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Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:10 am
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