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 Urgent help needed! Young son has viral infection 
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Vitamin C Expert
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Quote:
It would be interesting to know just how much ascorbic acid is absorbed into the blood stream via the stomach wall - perhaps making the gut flora issue moot.

Like I said few times, I asked Levy about this and he thinks its not an issue based on his practice. He pointed out that C is absorbed before colon so if it does have effect on colonic flora its mild (unless you do c flush). He also pointed out that lipospheric C completely solves that as it is completely absorbed before the colon.

Also, nobody knows exactly if colonic microflora might use C for its own benefit - flatulence signify that it might be true for some strains. I know that bifidobacteria use some C.


Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:56 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
ofonorow wrote:
I notice that you used the word "damaging" but she (a medically trained doctor, which means she was taught very little about vitamin C) uses the word "irritant."

Sorry, I didn't put close attention to the words. I just saw the red flag when I read that.
My main reason for concern is whether my mother can safely take Vit C. I posted a threat several months ago about my mother's case. She has much of her intestine and gallbladder removed, and she suffers from acute pancreatitis (and a whole load of other illnesses: high blood pressure, extremely high triglycerides, headaches, herniated disks, heart problems). Doctors put her on a very limited diet. When I discovered Vitamin C, she started taking first pills, then powder form, but was complaining about unpleasant sensations when taking C as a diluted powder. She said pill don't give her that much of a problem, but I don't want her to take her 20+g/day in a pill form.
Owen, you advised that she takes Vit C as sodium ascorbate, but she is again concerned how that would affect her colon, stomach, liver and pancreas in particular.
She has just started GAPS and is feeling a little better, but she has completely stopped taking her Vitamin C because of Dr Campbell-McBride recommendation.
ofonorow wrote:
Yes, the bottom of the esophagus can become raw, and adding sodium ascorbate seems to sooth it.

So you just substitute Ascorbic acid with sodium ascorbate for awhile and then go back to AA?

Also, I feel like I am coming down with cold, so I want to follow Vit C cold/flu protocol (8g every 20 min), but I am nursing. I know that I shouldn't use high doses of C because of the detox issue, is it also true if I have a virus?


Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:38 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Recently people are mentioning a "detox" issue - which is news to me. (If someone can point to the page in the Pauling book, I'd appreciate it.) If nature works as we would expect, then it favors the baby, so I don't understand the notion that the mother's body would somehow poison the baby? I would be willing to look at and study evidence of this.

As others have pointed out, there is a limit to how much vitamin C passes through the milk, so I don't see any problem with you taking almost any amount of vitamin C during lactation.


Quote:
but she has completely stopped taking her Vitamin C because of Dr Campbell-McBride recommendation.


Yes, it would be okay to switch from AA to SA, if she prefers that form of vitamin C. (With the caveat that at least some of the C as AA will reach her blood stream via the stomach wall. Not sure where her intestines were removed?) Many, if not most of the problems you describe could be related to an underlying vitamin C deficiency. In my opinion, stopping all vitamin C does not seem like a good idea. All due respect to Dr. Campbell-McBride, her advice on vitamin C is wrong.

I agree with you that the C powder is better than the pills, but it may be more concentrated, and perhaps you can slowly work up the dosage.

I hope I had previously recommended pancreatic enzymes and perhaps pure amino acids to help with her impaired digestion.

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Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:23 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
ofonorow wrote:
If nature works as we would expect, then it favors the baby, so I don't understand the notion that the mother's body would somehow poison the baby?


Well, the way i understand it, if I take mega doses of Vitamin C without slowly building up to it, then my body can start to detox and some of the toxins might leach in the breast milk.

What about mercury and other medications? Some poisonous instances do pass through breast milk, so it is not completely foolproof.

ofonorow wrote:
Not sure where her intestines were removed?

She doesn't know herself. Doctor told her that he removed 2/3 and she never bothered to ask which portion.
ofonorow wrote:
I hope I had previously recommended pancreatic enzymes and perhaps pure amino acids to help with her impaired digestion.


She is taking Creon right now to aid digestions. She is also taking L-Lysine and L-Proline according to Pauling's protocol. I also want her to take Vit A 25,000 IU (she is taking prescription Vit D, would it be enough to prevent Vit A toxicity?) and E - 400IU, B-complex, along with Now Foods, Liver Detoxifier & Regenerator

Could you give me some links to information about pancreatic enzyme, please?


Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:28 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Quote:
Recently people are mentioning a "detox" issue - which is news to me. (If someone can point to the page in the Pauling book, I'd appreciate it.)

Owen, no offense, but whats going on with your memory ? I suggest you some nootropics, Piracetam for instance (I take 3g, you could 5g). It was you who said several times on this forum that Pauling said that vitamin C may push some toxins to the skin. It also happened in my personal experience (and my wifes, and my friends) that initally C can produce detoxing sympthoms, sometimes pretty big.

Owen wrote:
These (cold sores) are common reaction for those who first begin high vitamin C therapy. Linus Pauling in his book HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER speculates that these sores are caused by an improved immune system from the vitamin C intake. As the body detoxes toxins and viruses deep in the tissues, they move toward the surface, causing the rashes, boils and cold. sores.

Good news is that this condition is temporary, and after the "detox" your body will be rid of these nasty toxins/viruses.


viewtopic.php?p=26937#p26937

Quote:
If nature works as we would expect, then it favors the baby, so I don't understand the notion that the mother's body would somehow poison the baby?

There is nothing natural in C megadoses, people need to understand that. Its a hack, its different from liver optidosing when we had the GULO gene. Also, that is speculation. Its known that nature doesn't always favor the baby, and some times it may even favor the mother (i.e. mercury detox).


Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:53 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
kolganito wrote:
What about no-flush formulas or is it just a marketing tool?

So do I need 500mg or should I start with a low dose and increase it?

No-flush formulas are okay, but they don't show some of the same benefits as plain niacin. Check Dr. Hoffer's B3 paper for the full details; you'll be able to make an better-informed decision.

kolganito wrote:
Weston Price Foundation states that as long as the ratio of A to D in cod liver oil is at least 10:1, you won't overdose on Vitamin D. They recommend taking 2tsp of cod liver oil that provide 10,000IU of A and 1,000IU of D

With cod liver oil, the issue isn't getting too much D, it's getting too much A if you take enough to get all your D.

kolganito wrote:
I forgot to mention that in addition to cod liver oil that provide 400 IU of D, I give my son 1 drop of Carlson Vit D which provide another 400IU

This is good; it's closer to Dr. Holick's recommended intake for kids his age. You'll know if it's enough by his vitamin D blood test.

kolganito wrote:
I haven't read the pdf file. I was hoping to avoid vit K supplementation. Doesn't butter from grass fed cows provide enough vitamin K?

It may or may not. The important thing is that you don't know the vitamin K content of the butter without measuring it. Supplements are a way to be sure.

kolganito wrote:
I am more concerned about the additives in a pill form of the vitamins. I understand that supplementation is necessary, but if to take all the B vitamins (B-50, B-3, B-5, B-6, Folic acid, PABA), magnesium, vitamin K, vitamin D (am I missing anything?) in pills, you end up with 9 a day with a load of magnesium stearate and other additives. Is it safe?

Magnesuim stearate isn't absorbed through the intestinal tract. If you're concerned about it, you can take magnesium citrate powder, without fillers, and a multivitamin that has 50 or 100 mg of B vitamins (but most won't have enough folic acid). K and D come in oil caplets, so no stearate there.

kolganito wrote:
I am currently taking Rainbow light One a day prenatal Vitamins.
http://www.rainbowlight.com/Categories. ... 1835132d2f

That's a little better than the average multi, but otherwise relatively low on most of the vitamins (better on folic acid, though). The one Owen recommends is a good one. I've also used this (with iron) and this (without). None of these, or most multis in general, have enough C, D, K, magnesium, or iodine (or folic acid).


majkinetor wrote:
There is nothing natural in C megadoses, people need to understand that.

Now, wait a minute. Not sure what you mean here. Sure, humans taking bowel tolerance doses/dozens of grams of C is 'unnatural', in that we don't make C in our livers, and can't get dozens of grams in any 'natural' diet. But other C-making animals do make dozens of grams (sometimes 100+ grams) when they are sick or poisoned, so I'd say it's not true that there's nothing natural about C megadosing.


Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:44 pm
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Yes, animals make it, for them its natural. We don't, for us its not natural. What we do is poor mans approximation. You can never dose vitamin C the same way liver/kidney does (the same goes for diabetics and insulin for instance, you are not pancreas with minute changes in insulin expression). If we talk about non-synthetisizing animals, they obtain it via food, with other chemicals, so taking large doses of isolate isn't that natural also.

That is mainly semantical observation, not that I doubt any minute that its important to take it in gram amounts. It was said mainly to rise a point in discussion about pregnancy and detox.

Quote:
Magnesuim stearate isn't absorbed through the intestinal tract.

Unless you have a leaky gut. You might also be allergic although its not common.


Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:19 pm
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
majkinetor wrote:
Yes, animals make it, for them its natural. We don't, for us its not natural. What we do is poor mans approximation. You can never dose vitamin C the same way liver/kidney does (the same goes for diabetics and insulin for instance, you are not pancreas with minute changes in insulin expression). If we talk about non-synthetisizing animals, they obtain it via food, with other chemicals, so taking large doses of isolate isn't that natural also.

That is mainly semantical observation, not that I doubt any minute that its important to take it in gram amounts. It was said mainly to rise a point in discussion about pregnancy and detox.

Gotcha. I see what you're saying, especially with the insulin example (my mom and I talked about this with the thyroid - she's on Synthroid - how a single oral dose in the morning will never properly match what a normally functioning thyroid gland does).

We need the equivalent of an insulin pump, for ascorbate (storage reservoir would be a little bulky, though. :| Darn it, liver!).


Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:37 pm
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Jacquie wrote:
kolganito wrote:
Weston Price Foundation states that as long as the ratio of A to D in cod liver oil is at least 10:1, you won't overdose on Vitamin D. They recommend taking 2tsp of cod liver oil that provide 10,000IU of A and 1,000IU of D

With cod liver oil, the issue isn't getting too much D, it's getting too much A if you take enough to get all your D.


I meant that with the proportion D to A being 1:10 you won't overdose on A (Not D). So if we take 2,000IU of D from cod liver oil, we'll end up taking 20,000IU which is less than Pauling's recommended dose of 25,000IU. The problem with cod liver oil is not to overdose on omega-3 if taking for example 20,000IU of A. So I was thinking of switching to pill form of CLO because it contains less omega-3 in proportion to A and D. For my son, I believe 4,000IU of A is enough, so he can obtain it from one tsp of cod lover oil.

I just want a little more clarity on the doses of the vitamin. What is in your opinion, the optimum dose for all the vitamins?
A-20,000-25,000?
B1- ?
B2 - ?
B3 - 100-300?
B4- ?
B5 - 500mg?
B6 - ?
B12 - ?
Biotin - 300mcg?
Folic Acid - 1600mcg
PABA - 500mg?
magnesium - 1000mg
D- 2,000IU
C - varies
E 400IU
K - ?
Iodine - 225mcg

Jacquie wrote:
hat's a little better than the average multi, but otherwise relatively low on most of the vitamins (better on folic acid, though). The one Owen recommends is a good one. I've also used this (with iron) and this (without). None of these, or most multis in general, have enough C, D, K, magnesium, or iodine (or folic acid).
[/quote]

I like the fact that Rainbow light are food based. I wanted just to add B-complex (thinking of getting this one http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00110/Complete-Vitamin-B-Complex.html) and magnesium to them. Along with 2tsp of cod liver oil (8000IU of A, and 800IU of D) I think would be ok for now.
Once I am done breastfeeding, I might increase the dose for some.


Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:11 pm
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Kind of hard to keep track of everything in this thread.

Re: M

Quote:
Pauling said that vitamin C may push some toxins to the skin. It also happened in my personal experience (and my wifes, and my friends) that initally C can produce detoxing sympthoms, sometimes pretty big.


The issue is breast milk - the context was w/respect to taking "mega" C and having toxins wind up in the breast milk of lactating women. Where is the evidence?


Quote:
Yes, animals make it, for them its natural. We don't, for us its not natural. What we do is poor mans approximation. You can never dose vitamin C the same way liver/kidney does (the same goes for diabetics and insulin for instance, you are not pancreas with minute changes in insulin expression). If we talk about non-synthetisizing animals, they obtain it via food, with other chemicals, so taking large doses of isolate isn't that natural also.


"Not natural." Are you redefining the word "natural?" But for the GULO genetic defect, humans would be producing some amount of ascorbate 24/7. What is natural about the condition we find ourselves in? Yes it is true that those of us "in the know" approximate what our more perfect bodies would be doing for themselves by taking large amounts of supplemental ascorbate around the clock. But to imply that replacing the lost ascorbate is somehow "unnatural" seems too fine a point. And it implies that all the diseases that occur because of this defect are "natural", starting with cardiovascular diseases, collagen diseases, soft bones, infections, etc. (actually there is a long list we share with guinea pigs and gorillas).

Maybe this is just a "language" issue? But calling megadose C unnatural seems to be an error.

Returning to pregnancy, most species produce vitamin C 24/7, around the clock, and more when under stress, etc. Yet mammals are able to reproduce and feed their offspring with any difficulties related to their endogenous vitamin C production. I am just asking for evidence of the claim that high C in a pregnant or lactating mother can harm the child. This is news to me if true. I doubt it is true.

There are a lot of good digestive enzymes on the market.

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Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:28 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
Quote:
The issue is breast milk - the context was w/respect to taking "mega" C and having toxins wind up in the breast milk of lactating women. Where is the evidence?

The breast milk is taken via skin. We also know that toxins can pass into milk in general and know that its not possible to substantially boost C content of the milk. I also personally experienced non-skin related detox and some of my friends observed full blown herx reaction.

Quote:
I am just asking for evidence of the claim that high C in a pregnant or lactating mother can harm the child

We were talking about sudden boost of the dosage. It will not harm the baby if you have build up the dose previously and let the body adapt. However, we were talking here about sudden dose boost in order to boost the milk content of C.

Quote:
Maybe this is just a "language" issue? But calling megadose C unnatural seems to be an error.

Jacqiue didn't seem to have a problem understanding this. I don't have anything more to say about it. The philosophy of natural and unnatural do not interest me, I am interested in beneficial and unbeneficial, be it natural or not. I for instance use Piracetam as anti-aging nootropic which is completely synthetic and doesn't exist in nature because literature shows that its almost as safe and beneficial as vitamins are. I don't eat fruit although its natural because I don't think its beneficial compared to vegetables.


Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:58 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
ofonorow wrote:
The issue is breast milk - the context was w/respect to taking "mega" C and having toxins wind up in the breast milk of lactating women. Where is the evidence?

Is there an evidence that toxins won't end up in the breastmilk after a sudden increase in the dose of C?
Some of the toxins do pass through breastmilk, so if Vitamin C can cause detox, it seems obvious to me that there is a chance that some of these toxins will end up in breastmilk. Even if it just a chance and even it is very small, I'd rather play it safe and not mega dose on C while breatfeeding.


Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:46 am
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
BTW, Lemonade reminded me that I was posting about detox issue here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8554

Owen, remind yourself too.


Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:26 pm
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Post Re: Urgent help needed!
majkinetor wrote:
BTW, Lemonade reminded me that I was posting about detox issue here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8554

Owen, remind yourself too.


And I stick by my comments in that thread - I had never heard of toxic breast milk, especially from taking high dose vitamin C! All I am asking is for some kind of scientific evidence that the speculation in that thread might have some basis in fact. If a woman avoids taking high vitamin C because she is worried about phantom metal toxicity, she is potentially harming herself as well as the baby.

Now, if the mother has no toxicity, the issue is moot.

The way vitamin C seems to work w/respect to metals is to attach, like a chelator, rendering the metal inert. Normally, the metal is then expelled in the urine and doesn't seem to harm the kidneys when complexed with ascorbate. Why would this be any different if the toxins were able to be expelled via the breast milk?

I just cannot imagine that increasing vitamin C would harm a lactating baby in any way, but I can see both the mother and baby harmed by too low vitamin C intake.

By the way, the reason for inferring that nature favors the baby is because we exist. Afterbillions of years, if it were the other way, it is unlikely we would be here.

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Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:43 am
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