lypo c disappointment

Discussion of the benefits and disadvantages of commercial and homemade (DIY) liposomal vitamin C

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Jacquie
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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#16  Post by Jacquie » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:35 am

Ah, if you're basing it on an experimental result, cool. For a minute I thought you were basing it only on general microbiology theory.

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#17  Post by Serdna » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:23 am

Saw wrote:Dr.Levy points out Lipo c is intracellular, while AA is extracellular and he recommends using AA along with your lipo.

Not exactly:
Dr. Levy (Primal Panacea pg. 130) wrote:Liposome-encapsulated vitamin C has the convenience of an oral administration while offering a bioavailability technically superior even to C delivered by vein. In other words, an intravenous result delivered by mouth is now possible.

Dr. Levy (Primal Panacea pg. 133) wrote:Once a month, or even once a week, take spaced doses of vitamin C powder dissolved in water until the onset of diarrhea. At this point a baseline dose can be determined, and the bowels will benefit from a healthy cleanse.
<<...>>
When the baseline requirement is established, supplementation on subsequent days could include a combination of a liposomal formulation and sodium ascorbate powder or either type alone.

Saw wrote:It seems to me that we are not even sure that the vitamin c from the liposomes is available in the blood stream.

Such as majkinetor has pointed out, plasma level comes from somewhere:
Hickey et alter (pg. 14 of Pharmacokinetics of oral vitamin C) wrote:The similarity in the plasma response curves for liposomal vitamin C and the standard commercial formulation, shown in Figure 1 (5g doses), is interesting. There is a hint that the liposomal form has a slower onset to peak level and a broader profile. Liposomes are absorbed from the gut and into the liver, before being released into the blood stream. This response can be seen more clearly in the 20g dose, in Figure 2. It is apparent that sustained levels of plasma ascorbate, above the previously assumed maximum of 220 μM/L, are possible with oral intakes of liposomal vitamin C.

Certainly it is a n=2 (even n=1) experiment, but the phenomenon seems independent of individual factors, although speed and plasma level values will vary with each person. Liver release seems plausible and logical, since it did just that until something like 60 million years ago.

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#18  Post by majkinetor » Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:40 am

Ah, if you're basing it on an experimental result, cool. For a minute I thought you were basing it only on general microbiology theory.

I am basing my observration on everything I know:

1. The study from Hickey
2. The case from New Zeland and so on
3. The microbiology - cells release ascorbate back to plasma and GLUT which transports dehydroascorbate is bidirectional transporter.
4. Its now knownthat glial cells release ascorbate for neuronal usage.

So, if something injects cells with lot of ascrobate, it will appear in plasma too.

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#19  Post by Saw » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:55 am

Yes I agree the Hickey study clearly shows liposomal c is in the blood, but as ascorbate or is it still incapsulated as a liposome.That is the question.

From Dr.Levy. This starts at about 4 Minutes into the video. http://www.ihealthtube.com/aspx/viewvideo.aspx?v=a11180cc1b1f3fff
But even more importantly, the evidence is now showing that you just don’t get absorbed into the blood and release it into the blood.
It gets absorbed into the blood, and then in the same mechanism it gets absorbed into the blood, it will pass directly into the cell so that
you get it from taking something orally, you get an intracellular delivery.
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#20  Post by majkinetor » Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:14 pm

but as ascorbate or is it still incapsulated as a liposome.That is the question.

as ascorbate.

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#21  Post by Saw » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:29 am

as ascorbate.



Hello Justin,

Thanks for your note.

When the lypo C is in the blood, before being taken up by any cells, it will still register as vitamin C on a blood level test of vitamin C, even though it is encapsulated in liposomes and not just present in the plasma by itself. So, equivalent amounts of liposome encapsulated vitamin C have superior absorption into the plasma, and from there, they have superior take-up inside cells. Some of the C is directly released into the cytoplasm, and some of the liposomes are still intact inside the cytoplasm, at least for a while.

Hope this clarifies things,

Dr. Levy


http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8672&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15
Even a Blind Squirrel makes his own vitamin C.

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#22  Post by tjohnson_nb » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:17 am

This is an old thread but I have a question. If bowel tolerance is an indication of the body's requirement of Vit C then wouldn't it make sense that it would go down as the plasma and cellular levels went up? Seems to me I read somewhere that it actually can go up during IVC treatments. I am wondering if I take Lipo C would i need less oral C - maybe I should experiment :)
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#23  Post by studentroland » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:56 am

If bowel tolerance is an indication of the body's requirement of Vit C then wouldn't it make sense that it would go down as the plasma and cellular levels went up?

Yes it would make sense...I don´t know why it doesn´t...perhaps it doesn´t because one still needs these high amounts, and the healthier one gets while megadosing C, the more C the body needs to "keep up" with the overall gradually increasing metabolism...?

On another note, as a thought originating from Serdna´s remark earlier in this thread:
Could be a second advantage that, as it targets the liver first, perhaps it would be preferable in hepatitis cases even to IV? Am I missing something?

I´d say that; Yes, I think you´re missing something...and so it seems that Hickey et. al does too, since he was quoted in the above post, saying;
Liposomes are absorbed from the gut and into the liver, before being released into the blood stream.


It seems to me that both Serdna and Hickey are missing something, because as I understand anatomy and physiology, humans have a lymphatic system which takes care of almost all fats directly from the intestines and transports them in the form of "chyle" directly into the aorta (adjacent to the heart) thereby bypassing the liver...since this is the case with ordinary fats, it should also according to my thinking apply to fatty nanovesicles like Lyposheres...here is what it says on wikipedia about the lymphatic system:
Lymph vessels called lacteals are present in the lining of the gastrointestinal tract, predominantly in the small intestine. While most other nutrients absorbed by the small intestine are passed on to the portal venous system to drain via the portal vein into the liver for processing, fats (lipids) are passed on to the lymphatic system to be transported to the blood circulation via the thoracic duct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymphatic_system
So, by this way of reasoning, it seems to me that Lypospheric vitamin C is deliverd directly to the tissues without first having to go through the liver...or am I missing something?

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#24  Post by tjohnson_nb » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:09 pm

So then it may be that the BT has little to do with blood plasma and cellular levels of Vit C? Maybe it is only a local (in the gut) phenomenon.
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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#25  Post by studentroland » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:16 pm

I would think so, yes...BT is a phenomenon described only in association with oral ascorbic acid and ascorbates, and also with lypospheric vit.C...but not in association with intravenous administered vit.C.. so...yes, it seems to have nothing else to do with plasma-levels or intracellular levels other than as a secondary consequence when the intestinal uptake-capacity for ascorbic acid is being maximized, or when the uptake-capacity of fatty lyposomes is being maximized, just as is the case with intestinal cleansing or gallbladder flush/liver-flush using oliveoil...the intestines are flooded with fats, and so some of it goes right through...
http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/
A comparison can also be made with ingesting magnesium-supplementation to bowel tolerance-levels...
http://www.nutritionarticlesonline.com/constipation_cures.html
I once also tried what´s called a "salt-water flush", however this is not something I recommend, since it didn´t work for me, but instead gave me a bad stomach-ache for two days, although for some people it seems to work...anyway, this apparently also works in the same way by "overflooding" the intestines with some substance, to the point where it goes right through...
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-a-saltwater-flush.htm
Last edited by studentroland on Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#26  Post by Serdna » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:30 pm

studentroland wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymphatic_system
So, by this way of reasoning, it seems to me that Lypospheric vitamin C is deliverd directly to the tissues without first having to go through the liver...or am I missing something?
Yes! That makes a lot of sense and fits with Dr. Levy's clinical experience. No direct advantage to hepatitis treatment though :?.

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#27  Post by studentroland » Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:02 pm

No direct advantage to hepatitis treatment though :?.

No...but does it somehow shine a light on an answer to Saw´s question concerning the number 1 chart in Hickey´s paper, where the plasma-levels of 5 grams of ingested AA and 5 grams of lyposomes are practically equal?
True, but thing that strikes me is chart #1 > 5 grams AA vs 5 grams lipo and the plasma levels are basically identical.How can this be explained???

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#28  Post by tjohnson_nb » Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:48 pm

studentroland wrote:I would think so, yes...BT is a phenomenon described only in association with oral ascorbic acid and ascorbates, and also with lypospheric vit.C...but not in association with intravenous administered vit.C.. so...yes, it seems to have nothing else to do with plasma-levels or intracellular levels other than as a secondary consequence when the intestinal uptake-capacity for ascorbic acid is being maximized, or when the uptake-capacity of fatty lyposomes is being maximized, just as is the case with intestinal cleansing or gallbladder flush/liver-flush using oliveoil...the intestines are flooded with fats, and so some of it goes right through...
http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/
A comparison can also be made with ingesting magnesium-supplementation to bowel tolerance-levels...
http://www.nutritionarticlesonline.com/constipation_cures.html
I once also tried what´s called a "salt-water flush", however this is not something I recommend, since it didn´t work for me, but instead gave me a bad stomach-ache for two days, although for some people it seems to work...anyway, this apparently also works in the same way by "overflooding" the intestines with some substance, to the point where it goes right through...
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-a-saltwater-flush.htm


I have also done the salt water flush and it does work :) You may not have had enough salt if it didn't.
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#29  Post by studentroland » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:46 am

You may not have had enough salt if it didn't.

Well, had I done it on my own, this would have been a possibility, of course, but at the time I did it as part of a group in a sort of "school-setting" where the liquid was prepared by our teachers...I had no problem with the nose-rinse though, so I doubt that it was anything wrong with the salt-concentration, and it also worked for several other people in the same group...the reason underlying why it didn´t work is still obscure to me, but nothing that stimulates my curiosity, though... :) I see it as evidense proving that we all are "different" from each other in some small respect, although at the same time we´re also "all the same" in another somewhat larger respect... 8) The saltwater-flush I was trying out was/is called "Shankaprakshalana", and can be read about here:
http://www.yogameditation.com/Articles/Issues-of-Bindu/Bindu-8/Intestinal-Cleansing

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Re: lypo c disappointment

Post Number:#30  Post by tjohnson_nb » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:17 am

studentroland wrote:Well, had I done it on my own, this would have been a possibility, of course, but at the time I did it as part of a group in a sort of "school-setting" where the liquid was prepared by our teachers...I had no problem with the nose-rinse though, so I doubt that it was anything wrong with the salt-concentration, and it also worked for several other people in the same group...the reason underlying why it didn´t work is still obscure to me, but nothing that stimulates my curiosity, though... :) I see it as evidense proving that we all are "different" from each other in some small respect, although at the same time we´re also "all the same" in another somewhat larger respect... 8) The saltwater-flush I was trying out was/is called "Shankaprakshalana", and can be read about here:
http://www.yogameditation.com/Articles/Issues-of-Bindu/Bindu-8/Intestinal-Cleansing


Ah, this is a slightly different method. I was proceeding like this

http://www.colonzone.org/salt-water-flush.php

1. Heat up 1 quart of filtered water in a pan.
2. Add 2 spoons of sea salt to the pan of water.
3. Have a taste of the water, and ensure it tastes very salty. If it doesn't taste salty, add more salt.
4. Afterwards, pour all the water to a glass.
5. Drink down the water quickly.
6. Crouch and rub your abdomen. This helps break down any clumped fecal matter.
7. After 15 mins to 2 hours, you should have diarrhea. You will release the water out your anus. If you don't have diarrhea after 2 hours, you did not put enough salt. So next time, please put more!


I did it 2 or 3 times - that was enough for me! :)
'Always' and 'never' are 2 words you should always remember never to use.


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