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 Optimum LP(a) levels ? 
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Post Optimum LP(a) levels ?
I just received the results of my LP (a) and Homocystein results:

LP(a) = 12.7 mg/dL
Homocysteine = 7.6 umol/L
CRP = 0.6 mg/L

The lab states 1) LP(a) < 30 mg/dL is normal and 2) Homocysteine < 14 is normal. However, at two sites I found different markers:

A. LP(a) : less than 20 mg/dL (in Australia less than 0.24 g/L) is considered "normal"; 20 – 30 mg/dL – "borderline-high"; greater than 30 mg/dL is considered "high."

B. The Lp (a) values should be < 10mg/dl as optimum, with 10 to 20 mg/dl borderline and > 20 mg/dl is considered high and potentially dangerous.

Any thoughts ?


Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:39 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
First of all, Lp(a) is only meaningful when measured. (As opposed to "calculated" which the FDA for some reason allowed several years ago.)

Pauling felt that 20 mg/dl was the dividing line, that more than 20 mg/dl would begin the process of atherosclerosis.

Atherotech, recognizing that the size of Lp(a) molecules is highly variable, reports the weight in the same number of LDL particles. In their scheme, 10 mg/dl is the border line. I think this is because large Lp(a) molecules are not as "atherogenic" but may have a high mass. They felt it was misleading to simply report weight. (I think the recent change in measurement units to nmol/l was an attempt to do the same thing - measure the number of particles.)

Atherotech's VAP test used to report various categories of Lp(a) based on their size. This report does not come by default any more, but the doctor can make arrangements and ask for these additional values (which are measured and stored at Atherotech, just not reported.)

So your Lp(a) (if measured) is slightly elevated, which is a good reason to take Lp(a) binding inhibitors - i.e. vitamin C and lysine/proline. The best number is less than 3 mg/dl. People usually reach this number who are consistently on Pauling Therapy products for more than a year.

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Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:29 am
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
Thanks for the info. I have no idea about it being calculated or measured.

I have been taking Niacin for cholesterol for about 15 years (2g/d). Two years back I started LP and my lipid improved a lot. Two months ago, I decided to lower the Niacin to 1g/d , concerned about Homocysteine. Below are lipids data: first one with 2g/d Niacin, the 2nd 1g/d.

Cholesterol, Total 209 239
Triglyceride, Ser/Plas 53 110
HDL Cholesterol 87 87
Non-HDL Chol, Calc 122 152
Direct LDL Chol 114 129

I never had LP(a) done before.


Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:56 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
LP? Pauling therapy?

How much and how often?

From these numbers,

Quote:
Cholesterol, Total 209 239


I would guess that your input of vitamin C is below optimal.

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Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:41 am
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
Yes LP protocol;

I started out with 3X3 g/d AA; + 1.5X3 g/d Lysine + 0.5X3 g/d Proline; all powder in 2 cups of water; That was the BT at that time. Six months after, I realized that my BT had increased and settled on 10g/d AA + 6g/d Lysine;

Now it seems even at 14 g/d (divided in 4 segments) is not enough. I am working through it slowly to see where I end up. Am considering Lipo C.

I decided to take the protocol 4 times (to increase absorption), instead of 3, but it is hard. May go back to 3 with increased dose. Also is it OK to increase Lysine to 8g/d ?


Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:37 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
Have you checked your dosage against the minimum in johnwen's body weight table?
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7593

I know a few people who have taken much more than 8 g of lysine - with no apparent problems. We just (think we know) that much less lysine (2 - 6 g) can have the plaque dissolving effects, and no one is study higher amounts - than "us" I suppose, indirectly.

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:33 am
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
Quote:
The best number is less than 3 mg/dl. People usually reach this number who are consistently on Pauling Therapy products for more than a year.


Is there another forum thread where others have shown improvements in their Lp(a) numbers. The science makes sense to me, but I'd like to read some first hand experiences of those that have tried the Pauling therapy and seen the results in their Lp(a) numbers. I've been resisting the doctors advice about statins and I'm doing the V-C/Lysine dosages. I'm just curious about other's numbers with the therapy. Thanks.


Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:51 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
Doctors (such as Warren Levin) using, or experienced with, Pauling's therapy have noticed significant drops in Lp(a) in their patients, and we once posted a copy of the letter he wrote to JAMA about this. (They wouldn't publish of course.) It was finally published in the Townsend Letter.

The conventional literature equates vitamin C to niacin (a 30% drop in Lp(a)). (Compare this to statin drugs which have been shown to raise/increase Lp(a)! This effect is reported on the statin drug ads in Canada - but not required by FDA in USA !? You can see the actual Canadian ads that someone from Canada sent to me by scrolling down here: http://naturesperfectstatin.com/warn.htm

We included the story of the medical school professor taking vitamin C/lysine and measuring his own Lp(a) every six months in our book (http://www.practicingmedicinewithoutalicense.com/ ). He started with elevated Lp(a) Adding lysine dropped his Lp(a) number about 30%, but it went to zero after adding proline. (That is when he called me!)

In my experience (including myself) people on the Pauling therapy (meaning high correct dosages) long term tend to have Lp(a) numbers approaching zero. Since the only "study" that matters in your individual case is what happens to you, why not adopt this safe and apparently highly effective Pauling protocol, and then report back (to this forum) what happens to your Lp(a)?

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:28 am
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
Thank you for the very thorough reply.

I agree with everything you've said, and as such have upped my dosages to 18-22g/day of Vit C divided in 4 doses and 6g/day of Lysine divided in 3 doses. Plan to start proline too. I'm 38 years old, marathon runner, healthy eater, but because of my family history my doctors want me on statins (which I won't do). My overall cholesterol is 184, but my Lp(a) was measured at a whopping 133 mg/dL. For brevity sake I won't list all of my numbers, but this is the one that gave me concern since my brother (age 40) had similar cholesterol numbers, but ended up with a mild heart attack 6 months ago due to 90% blockage.

I plan to get re-checked in June 2012 and am posting this reply to give the community a baseline of my Lp(a) and what I'm doing. I've been doing smaller doses since January, but only started the larger doses last week. I'm anxious to see the progress.


Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:55 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
I think it is impossible to have that Lp(a) with a 184 total cholesterol (T.C. which is good by the way!) Therefore, I am guessing that the number is in nmoles/liter, or else it is "calculated" and not measured! You might want to retest with a lab that measures LP(a). If you use the VAP test (atherotech) they retain more numbers than are reported, and your doctor can get at these additional Lp(a) numbers. They break it into sub groups by size, as the smaller Lp(a) are more athrogenic - dangerous.

But taking vitamin C and lysine makes sense - even for marathon runners!

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Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:29 am
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
OK. So I've been using PT to see what would happen to some of my blood work numbers. Most numbers are going up and the doctor is very concerned. I'm still refusing the statins (much to my doctor's chagrin), but I'm beginning to wonder what's going on with my body and I'm starting to worry because of how much the doctor is worried. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Below are dosages and blood results: (sorry this is so long)

In Jan 2012 I started with 5g VC/day, 2.5g Lysine/day. Quickly realized I could take more so…

Since April I've increased my intake to the following:
4 doses of Vitamin C daily totaling 18-20 grams/day (powder form)
3 doses of Lysine totaling 5 grams/day (powder form and pills)

Since July I've been taking all of the above plus I've added the following in order to more closely follow the original PT:
Proline--1000mg (500mg x2)/day
Vitamin A-25,000 IU/day
Vitamin Super B complex--1 pill/day
Vitamin D--2000 IU/day
Vitamin E (natural)-- 1000 iu/day
Vitamin K2--100mcg/day
Multi-vitamin/mineral--one/day

lisinopril--10mg/day (been taking that for about 8 years)
My average blood pressure seems to be rising as well. Doctor is increasing dosage to 20 mg. It's been averaging about 135/75 and about 10 points higher in doctor's office

The results are from Boston Heart Diagnostics, which have assured me that their numbers are directly measured and not calculated. I have am email stating as such(for what that's worth). The first number is the Dec 2011 result and the second number is the Dec 2012 result. And yes, the units are correct.
Total Cholesterol 184 201 mg/dL
Direct LDL-C 124 150 mg/dL
HDL-C 43 43 mg/dL
Triglycerides 115 77 mg/dL
Non-HDL-C 141 158 mg/dL
ApoB 111 126 mg/dL
sd LDL-C 31 43 mg/dL
%sd LDL-C 25 29
VLDL-C 17 8 mg/dL
Lp(a) 133 139 mg/dL
ApoA-l 142.8 141.5 mg/dL
hs-CRP 1.1 0.6 mg/L
LpPLA2 117 130 ng/mL
Insulin resistance 0.8
glucose 105.0 mg/dL
Insulin 6.0 3.0 uU/mL

The doctor seems most concerned with the LDL-C, ApoB, sdLDL-C, and the Lp(a) values, and the fact that my numbers are going the wrong way. He knows about what I'm taking, but isn't familiar with the protocol or the science behind it. I am very careful about what I eat, and I run and workout about 4-5 times per week very religiously. Any conclusions/recommendations about next steps would be most helpful.


Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:23 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
Interesting.

Most of the numbers are within the measurement error, and can differ by that amount during the day (as we discovered long ago with home cholesterol meters.) They can vary greatly depending on what you ate the night before, or even the type of wine!

The three I focused on -

1. Lp(a) - very high if you have the units correct!!??!!
2. Total Cholesterol - slightly elevated, indicating you can still metabolize more vitamin C
3. Triglycerides - seemed to go down a significant amount (fat in the blood)

First, the supplement program is excellent.

Curious, other than worrying about these blood tests, how do you feel? How does it compare to your memory of how you were feeling before you started the program?

Based on 1 and 2, I would try to add more ascorbic acid and/or Lypo-C daily (if bowel issues). You may have an unusually high requirement for vitamin C.

Based on 1, you are doing exactly the correct thing - adding "Lp(a) binding inhibitor" to keep that elevated Lp(a) from sticking to your arterial walls!

But I'll be you a quarter something is wrong with those Lp(a) measurements, and I would be interested in a VAP test/reading from Atherotech. Especially of the Lp(a). Those numbers would still be high if you got the units wrong! (i.e., If they were in nmol/l - where 70 is considered "high", like 20 mg/dl)

Added

After reviewing the numbers, I will bet a lot more than a quarter that something is wrong with the Lp(a) number!

Lp(a) is part of LDL. How can the LP(a) fraction (139) be so large compared to your overall LDL reading (150 +43 + 25 = 218??) Isn't total cholesterol 210? Something is fishy in river city.



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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:50 am
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
I felt good before I started taking the PT, and I still feel good. No real noticeable difference but that's because I still feel good with plenty of energy. Perhaps a small thing, but my running times have improved since I starting with the Vit-C, but that could be just improved fitness overall. Not sure.

The one question I had was the fact that my total cholesterol has been around 180 since I got it tested 2.5 years ago, so why now do I see an increase in the numbers which seem to be directly related to PT? My test was a 12 hour fast, except water and vitamins.

I plan to start taking two serving of Liposomal VC per/day to increase uptake, but I just wish there was a way to know what it's doing to my vessel health. If only we had cameras to see our inside vessel walls :)

I'll also look into a VAP test to compare those strange Lp(a) numbers.

Is there anyway to find an orthomolecular doctor that I could visit with and discuss my test results in the context of my current therapy? The doctor is convinced I'm a heart attack just waiting to happen and I'd like a PT disciple (M.D.) to help support a second opinion to back up my approach. Thanks again for the responses. You're always very helpful and willing to respond.


Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:09 pm
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Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
fryeedaddy wrote:
Any conclusions/recommendations about next steps would be most helpful.


Have you listened to these two podcasts yet?

Lipidologist Dr. Thomas Dayspring Explains The Truth About Cholesterol
http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/6371/585-lipidologist-dr-thomas-dayspring-explains-the-truth-about-cholesterol/

Dr. Jonny Bowden Explains Why Lowering Cholesterol With Statins Is Foolish
http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/6908/632-dr-jonny-bowden-explains-why-lowering-cholesterol-with-statins-is-foolish/


Best of luck to you.
'


Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:10 pm

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:24 am
Posts: 7
Post Re: Optimum LP(a) levels ?
Thanks. I had not heard these before. Very interesting.

It's obvious I'm in a "high risk" category based on Dr. Dayspring's thinking due to my apoB levels. Listening to another video I found on him, he would put me on low card diet and a statin. The confusing thing is my Trigs are getting lower and lower and within another year I could be seeing that ideal HDL/Trig level at 1, yet my apoB levels group me as high risk. Is it possible the PT is actually causing my cholesterol, Lp(a), and apoB levels to increase? Anyone seen this scenario before? I do need to get my LDL particle count done, but I'm not sure how to go about doing that. Dr. Dayspring pretty much poo-pooed the VAP test, and basically only endorsed the NMR.


Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:01 am
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