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 Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate? 
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Post Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
Hello. I am a member of a moms group and the subject of vitamin C comes up from time to time. Many of the moms use sodium ascorbate in large doses when their kids are sick. One of the moms, however, stated that for the past 3 years, she has taken large doses of C on a regular basis and has developed an oxalate accumulation from high dose sodium ascorbate. She stated that the first symptom was red swollen hands, and at first the doctors were not able to identify the problem, but it turned out that she developed an oxalate problem because Vitamin C can convert to oxalates in the body (similar to what kidney stones are made of, except the oxalates are deposited--and wreak havoc--throughout the body rather than the kidneys). She states that she now has to be on a low oxalate diet to encourage her body to dump the excess oxalates. She said it could be a fatal condition if not caught, which really scared the 'you know what' out of me. (I have been giving my son sodium ascorbate on a daily basis per Dr. Fonoro's dosage advice in my last post...1 gram per year of age up to age 10)

I actually vaguely inquired about this issue here on these boards about a year ago, but the literature that was recommended to me was WAY over my head. "-) I have been doing a ton of research on the great benefits of C, and just recently purchased one of Dr. Levy's books. (Now if my 1 year old will allow me the time to read it, that would be nice!)

Could someone please explain to me (in really simple terms....) if this is a true cause for concern?

The mom that experienced this said that it is a very known problem, and gave me some sites that caution on vitamin C use.
The following site mentions Vitamin C as a supplement to avoid if you have an oxalate issue.
http://lowoxalate.info/faqs.html
And this site was given to me as well:
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/ho ... alates.asp
Here is a quote from the above site:
Quote:
Evaluate vitamin C intake. Vitamin C can break down to form oxalates. However, in adults, the amount of oxalate formed did not increase until the amount exceeded 4 g of vitamin C per day (27).
(I have been taking way more than 4 g per day for about 7 months now....should I be worried?)

Apparently there is even a Yahoo Group for people with this problem. So, how do you know if you are at risk for developing this problem via vitamin C consumption?

Thank you in advance,
April


Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:09 pm
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
I think this is an excellent question and may be one of the only real potential side effects of high vitamin C for some small subset of people. In general, I do not believe that most people should fear this potential side effect, and I know of no doctors who prescribed high vitamin C who have reported this in their patients, e.g. Cathcart, Levy, etc.

But yes, it is known that vitamin C an increase oxalate output in the urine. Sounds like she has a rare genetic disposition to create very large amounts of oxalate, or her kidneys are not filtering oxalate properly.

The normal caution related to increased oxalate production is w/r to kidney stones, and I found this article published the other day useful in this regard,
http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?ar ... egoryId=80

Pauling held that there are 3 major classifications of kidney stones, and that the oxalate stones wouldn't form in alkaline|acidic urine.. (have to find the reference...)

You mention sodium ascorbate, the alkaline form of vitamin C - perhaps she determine whether she responds better to the ascorbic acid form of the vitamin? (I'll edit this when I find Pauling's book.) She might want to experiment with different forms of vitamin C. However, I do not know if the form affects oxalate metabolism.

I will ask our experts and I hope you can encourage your friend to join this board so that we may find out more.

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Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:35 am
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
Thank you Dr. Fonoro for your response. I am trying to weed through all the information and have no scientific background, so thank you for explaining things so well. "-)

Do you know if there is any way to predetermine whether you would be at risk for this oxalate problem? The way the mom in my group spoke, it sounds as if you wouldn't realize it until it was too late. And it sounds like it is a very scary condition, which could be fatal. I have been taking about 9 grams of C daily for awhile now, and giving my 1.5 year old 1 gram a day. I have to say though, her story spooked me, and I fear that I could possibly be doing my son harm. In your opinion, do you think it is wise to continue this daily dosing regime?

The below quote sounds as if anyone who takes more than 1000-2000mg a day will most likely have a higher oxalate lever in their urine. Both my son and I would fit into this category since we take 1000 mg and up on a daily basis. Is higher oxalate levels in the urine dangerous? And does it put you at a higher risk of developing an oxalate problem? And one more question, do you believe that high doses of vitamin C can contribute to kidney stones? (You gave me the link to the below article and said you thought it to be useful, and the article warns against overdoing it with vitamin C due to a risk of developing kidney stones.)

Quote:
Don’t overdo vitamin C. Oxalic acid also explains why some kidney stone experts recommend against taking megadoses of vitamin C. Some of the vitamin is metabolized to oxalic acid in the body. In three studies that gave a total of 139 people either 1,000 or 2,000 mg. a day of vitamin C for three to six days, those taking 2,000 mg. had a higher oxalate level in their urine, whether or not they had a history of kidney stones.


Thank you in advance for your experience and knowledge,

April and Domynik


Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:36 pm
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
While I understand your concern, none of our experts have seen or even heard of this. I'll post Dr. Levy's response below. In my opinion, which has developed from experience since around 1983, it is very dangerous for children not to supplement vitamin C. Generally the more they are given, the safer, i.e., and the better their health is, etc. (As I have reported about my own son, who was on "mega' C before he was even conceived, he missed one day of grammar/middle and high school due to illness. We think it was chicken pox, but he only had one lesion and it lasted about 24 hours. He is 20 years old and follows Linus Pauling's entire regimen and takes 6000 mg of vitamin C daily, more if he feels something coming on. Your children may never have to know what it feels like to be sick!)

From Dr. Thomas Levy, MD, JD


Quote:
Hello Owen,

As you noted in your comments, I have no seen such a reaction/side effect in my many years of high-dose vitamin C administration. It makes me curious as to how the conclusion was made that the signs and symptoms were actually due to oxalate accumulation.

In any event, when dealing with excess oxalate situations, the management needs to focus on the MANY different causes of excess oxalate accumulation/production, as I itemized in my book, not just vitamin C.

Finally, while I cannot prove this, I believe that regular but small doses of liposome encapsulated vitamin C should not aggravate such a problem, since the liposome literature would indicate that any vitamin C in the blood after taking such a preparation should largely still be liposome encapsulated until it is excreted or taken up by cells. I would not anticipate that this form of vitamin C should cause a significant increase in oxalate burden in the body.

Best regards,

Dr. Levy



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Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:00 am
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
Thank you very much. And please extend my thanks to Dr. Levy as well. I am thoroughly enjoying his book, Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases and Toxins. It's totally amazing that Klenner claimed to have cured 60 out of 60 polio cases. Why wouldn't this information be common knowledge in today's world??? And the safety of high dose C is pretty well documented with those 'opti dose' intravenous SA administrations...even on babies. I am dumbfounded as to why vitamin C treatment isn't universally acknowledged by all doctors for treatment of all diseases, considering the numerous studies that have been done on it. In fact, until I stumbled across info on vitamin C, I had never heard of using it in mega doses to treat anything. I was always told to drink lots of orange juice if I wanted to increase my C, and that C 'may' help your immune system. But from the sounds of it, the small doses in the RDA recommended by the FDA, won't do much of anything to ward off infections and illness. It's almost like the powers that govern the teaching of modern medicine don't want people to know about this treatment. (sorry if I sound way off base there....)

After carefully re reading the below quote from one of the links I sent you, it seems as if it is purely speculation that vitamin C 'could' cause stones/high oxalate problem. But the study of 85,000 women that found zero correlation between C and stones seems to overwhelmingly point to the probability that the stones were caused by other factors causing high oxalates. I dunno...

http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/ho ... alates.asp
Quote:
Evaluate vitamin C intake. Vitamin C can break down to form oxalates. However, in adults, the amount of oxalate formed did not increase until the amount exceeded 4 g of vitamin C per day (27). A large study of more than 85,000 women found no relation betwen vitamin C intake and kidney stones (28). In addition, an evaluation of 100 children on the autistic spectrum at The Great Plains Laboratory revealed that there was nearly zero correlation between vitamin C and oxalates in the urine (Table 2). Megadoses (more than 100 mg/Kg body weight per day) of vitamin C were shown to markedly reduce autistic symptoms in a double blind placebo controlled study (29) so any restriction of vitamin C needs to be carefully weighed against its significant benefits.


I am wondering if there is any way you can test your oxalate levels just to make sure you aren't 'one of those few' that could be affected....just in case. I probably wouldn't be thinking so cautiously if it were just me to consider, but when you are dealing with your own child, every precaution is magnified. My boy has a runny nose, and I automatically think the worst... 'swine flu...that could turn into pneumonia....that could lead to death'......ahhhh....."-) I am sure you know....

Learning about C treatment is pushing me to try to find a doctor in my area that is knowledgable and willing to do intravenous SA. Are non-doctor people ever trained to do this at home to themselves or to their family?

Sorry for the novel!

April and Dom :D


Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:24 am
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
We are all dumbfounded about why the world doesn't accept the healing power of vitamin C, even those of us who have been pondering the matter for a decade or three. It must be some kind of ingrained population control mechanism.

Klenner spoke about his success in curing polio at the time vaccines came out, so that may be a reason why he was ignored. Klenner's famous saying is "some doctors would rather see their patients die, than to give them vitamin C". It's really true.

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Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:20 pm
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
Quote:
Learning about C treatment is pushing me to try to find a doctor in my area that is knowledgable and willing to do intravenous SA. Are non-doctor people ever trained to do this at home to themselves or to their family?


Your reaction is typical of those learning the truth. First denial, then slow acceptance, then anger! (I do not sense your anger yet. As far as the danger from taking vitamin C, again, the danger is not be giving the child bowel tolerance vitamin C at the onset of the flu! Even if the child had the rare condition, which is probably so rare that he is more likely to be struck by lightning, you would know it by his symptoms.)

But good luck with your doctor search! If you find a doctor who is willing (and ACAM.ORG) is a good source, you can point them to this web site and forum for information. (It is highly doubtful any regular US doctor has any knowledge what-so-ever about IV vitamin C, much less the benefits of oral vitamin C. They are like you used to be - how could this be true and I don't know about it!? Ergo, it cannot be true.)

I have run into holistic "nurses" at conferences who do provide IVC treatments, but they generally do not advertise. Fortunately, with the advent of liposomal vitamin C, such as livonlabs.com Lypo-C, quite high serum vitamin C levels can be achieved orally, withour the need for IVC.

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Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:38 am
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
It's kind of simple after 4gr. of V-C 90% of the people will remain Healthy and not need health care. Which means less money coming into the Doctors. They have to pay their Country Club Dues don't they ???

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Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:53 am
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
Quote:
Your reaction is typical of those learning the truth. First denial, then slow acceptance, then anger!


It does anger me. All these studies have been done on C, are they all just being ignored? I thought that the medical industry was out there to really help people and keep them healthy! I began to lose my faith in the medical community after I learned about all the vaccine injuries and deaths, but it would appear that the deception goes way beyond vaccines. As a health care consumer, it is SO hard to know what and who to believe. Aw heck....not just as a consumer, as a human being. The wolf is out there wearing sheepskin in just about every avenue of life. And the wolf is always so convincing. It's like, you literally gotta pray for discernment is just about every situation that comes up!

Can't mainstream medical make money off of C just like they do with all the other drugs they push? (If money is the main motivator) They are making all this money off things that either don't work, or work but have horrible lasting side effects, harming people when their mission is to 'help' not 'harm'. Why not establish C clinics all over the world! Wouldn't that make a boatload of sense and make a real dent in the disease and suffering of people, especially in the third world countries? Is that illegal? Would starting a 'C clinic movement' land you in jail? Has this ever been attempted before?

Don't mainstream doctors know about these studies? Weren't they ever educated about them? And if so, WHY aren't they taking action? Isn't it their moral obligation as a 'physician' to be proactive in their patient's health? Do they just not believe that C is so beneficial? And if they do, and they are denying their patients true recovery and prevention of disease, how do they sleep at night? What do these politicians say when you write to them with info on C? Do they even respond? I just don't understand....aren't people supposed to be inherently good?

Ok ok I am done asking a million questions. Of course, I don't expect anyone to answer them all. "-)

Quote:
It's kind of simple after 4gr. of V-C 90% of the people will remain Healthy and not need health care.


One more 'Q' tho....are you saying that 4 grams of C is enough daily to remain healthy? (I thought the opti dose was 1 gram per age up to age 10...unless you are sick, in which you would up your dose)

April :)


Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:27 am
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
This was just a tounge in cheek comment using what I read in this thread.

Quote:
Evaluate vitamin C intake. Vitamin C can break down to form oxalates. However, in adults, the amount of oxalate formed did not increase until the amount exceeded 4 g of vitamin C per day (27).


As far as dosage for adults I did a lot of reasearch on it. Which you can check out in the heart disease section. "Testimony-It's the Doseage stupid!" Heres the link.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7593&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

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Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:36 am
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
Your outrage is noted and I will try to answer your questions. However, it is very difficult to believe what is happening. But you have nailed it, and fortunately, vitamin C is not "banned" so that individuals who are lucky enough to find this knowledge, can benefit from it. (The dosage issue is hard, by the way, but we agree that a healthy person taking 3-4 gms daily (The Foundation's Recommended Daily Allowance) will probably avoid most of the maladies that create income for the medical profession. Some people require more, and that is where bowel tolerance comes in as a guide. http://www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm. I think 10 grams daily is probably an amount that protects 90% of the population from heart disease.)


Quote:

Can't mainstream medical make money off of C just like they do with all the other drugs they push? (If money is the main motivator) They are making all this money off things that either don't work, or work but have horrible lasting side effects, harming people when their mission is to 'help' not 'harm'.


I read in a book, maybe Pauling's, about a doctor who did recommend vitamin C to his patients, perhaps in the 1970s. The problem was, he never saw those patients again!

Yes, the free market is perverse in this case, because doctors, hospitals and pharmaceuticals can make a great deal of money from chronic sickness or poor medicine, and make no money by curing people and keeping them well. Sooner or later, no matter how good the ethics in medicine, this economic force leads to the problems you are now seeing. (We propose an idea or framework for fixing this in our book Practicing Medicine Without a License: Universal Healthcare Vouchers where doctors are paid by a government voucher in exchange for providing all your health care needs. It turns the economics around so that the doctors have a strong incentive to keep you well, not sick. This way, that 1970s doctor could recommend C to all his patients, still make money and spend a lot of time on the beach!)

By the way, I once discovered that all vitamin C manufactured is about a $180 million dollar business, and that is probably wholesale. But compare that to just the cholesterol-lowering prescription drugs, which make Big Pharma on the order of $20 billion. Just one class of drug.

And gearing up to manufacture enough C for the entire population is fraught with issues, not the least of which is pollution. The real answer seems to restore the damaged GLU gene in the liver. Turn glucose eaten into vitamin C 24/7!


Quote:
Why not establish C clinics all over the world! Wouldn't that make a boatload of sense and make a real dent in the disease and suffering of people, especially in the third world countries? Is that illegal? Would starting a 'C clinic movement' land you in jail? Has this ever been attempted before?


It is a wonderful Don Quixote'ish idea! Someday, should someone at the Foundation become as wealthy as Bill Gates or George Soros, we may try to do this very thing.

However, what one comes to suspect after years of research into all this is that Governments have a hidden agenda - population control. Maybe they are using this to rationalize attacking supplements and propping up prescription drugs, but there seem to be large forces that would work against supplements, and they have their friends in government all over the world.

And while I don't know of a physician who has been jailed over Vitamin C (unlike those who have been jailed for simple cancer remedies) you have given me the idea to post an audio tape made by Dr. Warren Levin, MD, formerly of New York City. Dr. Levin was the first MD to sell vitamins out of his practice, and the NY state medical board took away his license to practice medicine in New York. He fought it (a great cost) all the way through the NY supreme court, and finally won after years. The audio includes the story of Linus Pauling testifying for Levin at one of the hearings. These are the types of obstacles (e.g., governmental coercion) that face any physician thinking about recommending vitamins and IVC - any protocol not blessed by modern medicine.)


Quote:
Don't mainstream doctors know about these studies? Weren't they ever educated about them? And if so, WHY aren't they taking action? Isn't it their moral obligation as a 'physician' to be proactive in their patient's health? Do they just not believe that C is so beneficial? And if they do, and they are denying their patients true recovery and prevention of disease, how do they sleep at night? What do these politicians say when you write to them with info on C? Do they even respond? I just don't understand....aren't people supposed to be inherently good?

Ok ok I am done asking a million questions. Of course, I don't expect anyone to answer them all. "-)


No mainstream doctors, in general, do not know about these studies and were never educated about them. In fact, just the opposite, their "nutritional" training includes brainwashing against the therapeutic value of nutrients, as I have documented here and elsewhere countless times. (I once attended a 300 level course titled "therapeutic nutrition" at a local university that brags 80% of their grads who want to, go on to med school. Vitamin C was not mentioned once, not a single time in this full semester course on therapeutic nutrition!?!? )

One reason for this mass ignorance is that most of the studies known to Pauling are "lost" - that is, they are not posted on Medline (were published prior to 1966) and the studies in the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine are ignored by Medline/Medicine. We have tried to get copies of about 700 of these early studies, collected by the late Irwin Stone, but have had no luck with Oscar Falconi, at least so far.

And there is a deliberate "news" campaign, that we have identified and documented over many many years, probably aimed mostly at physicians to reinforce the brainwashing they receive in school and medical journals. These manufactured stories masquerade as news and appear regularly. I wrote an article long ago about it

http://www.internetwks.com/owen/counter.htm

and tracking this forms the basis for our second books on these matters. Which reminds me, after a long hiatus, health freedom fighter Tim Bolen has again begun sending out his newsletter. Keep an eye on his web site, http://bolenreport.com/
and sign up for his news letter. He is a very important force in the legal battles protecting alternative-minded doctors who want to practice REAL medicine.

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:43 am
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
The story on the following audio is unbelievable – but I can certify that it is true.

Warren Levin was the first “holistic” M.D. in New York City, in that he was the first to prescribe and sell vitamins at his practice. In 1993 Dr. Levin made a 37 minute audio telling the story about his then decades-long fight with the New York Medical board over the right to prescribe vitamins and administer chelation therapy to his patients. New York was trying to revoke his license to practice medicine. No harm to any patient was ever alleged. His crime? Administering vitamins. This audio was made to help him raise money for his legal defense fund.

Posters to this forum have asked, “Why don't doctors know about vitamin C and all the research Pauling, Levy and others cite?” Listening to these recordings will go a long way in providing the answer.

I wish all Americans could listen to Dr. Levin, and realize that Dr. Levin is but one medical doctor who dared prescribe vitamins. This is not an isolated story. Hundreds of other doctors have been attacked by their state medical boards in the same manner and have similar horror stories.

The first two cuts are less than a minute each, and I have saved them in various formats. Even if you do not listen to the entire 37 minute story, listen to the 1 minute cuts

Introduction - 1 Minute
Windows (.wma) http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/voice/wlevinINTRO.wma
mp3: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/voice/wlevinINTRO.mp3
Mac (.m4a) http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/voice/wlevinINTRO.m4a

Summation - 1 Minute
Windows (.wma) http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/voice/wlevin1.wma
mp3: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/voice/wlevin1.mp3
Mac (.m4a) http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/voice/wlevin1.m4a

Dr. Levin's Entire 37 Minutes:

Windows (.wma) http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/voice/wlevinLONG.wma
mp3: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/voice/wlevinLONG.mp3
Mac (.m4a) http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/voice/wlevinLONG.m4a

These audio recordings are the same file in different formats, and one or another should download and be playable by windows media player or other similar software.

If you are on blood pressure medications, just listen to the two short 1 minute cuts.

The long audio includes Dr. Levin's account of the efforts that Linus Pauling made in his behalf. Linus flew to New York at his own expense to give five hours of testimony in support of Dr. Levin, only to be ignored in the medical board's decision to revoke Levin's license because Pauling's testimony was “not germane.” Why? Because Linus Pauling was not a medical doctor..

After this period that ended in 1994, Congress passed DSHEA, and for a time our right to vitamins was protected, at least in the USA. But we must be vigilant as I sense the effort to erode our freedoms and persecute alternatives is again on the rise.

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Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:21 pm
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
If you want to learn more about the underlying causes of this problem I suggest two books.

The first is "Manufacturing of Consent" by Herman and Chomsky. The basic gist is that our society is based on a propaganda model in which truth doesn't really matter. What matters is the the top 20% are heavily indoctrinated in a variety of essentially made up "truths" that may or may not correspond with reality. The other 80% are expected to simply follow orders. So we see this in medical school where doctors are trained in a certain way that means they won't consider vitamin C as a treatment for many of the reasons listed above.

The second is "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Taubes. It does a good job of describing in detail the history of why fat came to be vilified even though no rigorous study has ever shown that a high fat diet is bad or that a low fat diet is good. The same basic processes are at work in this history as well. As Taubes says you can get a Masters in Public Health or PhD in nutrition and never work with anyone who knows what science is. So much of what pretends to be science in the fields of nutrition and chronic disease is really just people trying to prove what they already believe. (which isn't science)

I think that after reading both books you will have a much better understanding of how things are the way they are.

I'm also reminded of a quote by Tolstoy:

"It's very hard to get a man to understand something if his salary depends on him not understanding it"


Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:08 pm
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Post Re: Can Vitamin C Be Metabolized To Oxalate?
:arrow: BUMP


Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:25 am
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