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 Excretion of C? 
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Post Excretion of C?
True or False?

http://www.drgrisanti.com/vitamin_c_page.htm

Quote:
Do you know that Vitamin C depletes your body of many mineral and trace mineral nutrients?

The truth is that your kidneys cannot excrete Vitamin C at all without combining it with an important mineral nutrient such as calcium or magnesium or zinc. Every single molecule of excess Vitamin C that gets dumped in your urine steals from you an important mineral nutrient.

Do you know that Vitamin C will particularly cause a deficiency in the essential trace mineral copper?

Do you know that excess Vitamin C will actually cause high cholesterol?

Do you know that excessive Vitamin C can destroy the pH control of certain patients making them more susceptible to certain physical and mental conditions?

Do you know that Vitamin C depletes the body of important minerals such as calcium and magnesium?

Do you know that Vitamin C can so deplete a person of copper that the blood vessels begin to break down and the heart is weakened?

Do you know that Vitamin C can elevate cholesterol in certain patients?

Do you know that excess Vitamin C can damage the DNA (the genetic material inside each of your cells) and also damage cell membranes because of its oxidant (not anti-oxidant) activity?

Do you know that because it is such a strong oxidant (not anti-oxidant) more than 500 milligrams of Vitamin C will cause the formation in your DNA of oxoadenine, a powerfully damaging toxin which particularly will harm the heart and other organs?

Do you know that Vitamin C will convert the mineral iron to a form that damages the blood vessels and leads to hardening of the arteries and heart blockage?

Do you know that Vitamin C can auto-oxidize, and instead of being an anti-oxidant to protect you against free radical damage, will actually cause free radical damage?

This oxidation of Vitamin C occurs most easily in the presence of minerals such as iron, manganese, and chromium. When excess Vitamin C is taken with these mineral nutrients you are particularly likely to suffer free radical damage.

Do you know that excess Vitamin C will cause the formation of the toxic chemical pentosadine, a marker of premature aging and tissue destruction?

Do you know that Vitamin C causes destruction of proteins in your body that will accelerate the aging process?

This acceleration of aging by Vitamin C is particularly pronounced in anyone with a diabetic tendency. The protein destructive effects of Vitamin C are particularly associated with cataract formation.

Do you know that Vitamin C in doses greater than 180 milligrams is a total waste of money because it is not absorbed and tends to cause gas and bloating in your intestinal tract?

Eighty to ninety percent of Vitamin C is absorbed up to a dose of 180 milligrams, but beyond that, absorption decreases rapidly so that at 5000 milligrams doses only 24% is absorbed, while the rest just irritates your digestive system.




Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:38 am
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Post 
I'll say false.
The list mentions a chemical called pentosadine. Do a google search of pentosadine, very informative, NOT!

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Note: I am not a doctor nor do I pretend to be one on the internet. Do not duplicate what I do without a pat on the head from your doctor and a note from your mommy.


Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:45 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post A load of used hay.
Total Bullpuckey!

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Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:27 am
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Vitamin C Master
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Post Re: A load of used hay.
Ralph Lotz wrote:
Total Bullpuckey!


Well, there are grains of truth. The copper issue has been documented, so I take copper supplements, too.

However, if everything here is true every mammal should be extinct.


Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:34 am
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Vitamin C Master
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http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... rtid=52907

Here is a study implying ascorbate as an issue. I am not trying to cry wolf, but what is the feeling regarding this study?

I understand that this is ascorbate within the eye. We know that the body has a high level of V-C in the eye. How would ascorbate interact in the body in general?

We must presume that a rich ascorate environment is better than not for two of our most critical systems, brain and eyes, for they hoard ascorbate at very high levels. If, you think about it, the two organs that must work in order for us to continue to supplement vitamin C would be the brain and eyes. Eyes to see the fruit and the brain to figure out to eat it. The only other system that is absolutely critical is primarily a physical system, the heart, that has a backup plan to temporarily patch the weak portions the of the vascular system while ascobate is rare.

The most critical systems are bathed in ascorbate. There may be a risk, but the risks of being without may be far worse.

It may be like having firearms in your house. There is a risk that someone in the house may freak out and use the guns and cause a negative effect. However, generally guns sit dormant until danger arises. When a rapist enters your home or all civilization breaks down like in New Orleans the value of having a gun rich environment is proven.

The question comes down to, "Is V-C kept in the systems like the brain and eye for they uniquely need it or their failure is the most important to prevent?" It is a very important question.

Can we take too much ascorbate and actually assume more of the negative risks than we gain from the positive results?

Ideas?


Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:26 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Can we take too much ascorbate.....
What about the 4,000 mammals that make C in their livers?
Do they have copper deficiencies?

Overzealous supplementation with zinc is a more plausible reason for copper deficiency.

Pauling figured that we only utilize about 1/2 of the C we ingest because of digestion and assimilation barriers.

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"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush


Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:57 pm
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Post 
ascorbicjoe wrote:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=52907

Here is a study implying ascorbate as an issue. I am not trying to cry wolf, but what is the feeling regarding this study?



This study is done in vitro. There have been other studies with ascorbic acid done in vitro that produced different results than the same sort of research done in vivo. I don't pay any attention to an ascorbic acid study unless it is done in vivo.

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-DanSco

Note: I am not a doctor nor do I pretend to be one on the internet. Do not duplicate what I do without a pat on the head from your doctor and a note from your mommy.


Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:09 pm
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Post Megaminerals Seem to Help Ascorbic Acid Action In Me
Since supplementing homemade superbiomin[gravel dust]I notice energy levels have gone way up.I feel the additional minerals give the vitamin C something to work with.Look up"Saving the planet with gravel dust.Thank you,Van

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Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:19 pm
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Re: Excretion of C?
Quote:
Do you know that Vitamin C depletes your body of many mineral and trace mineral nutrients?

The truth is that your kidneys cannot excrete Vitamin C at all without combining it with an important mineral nutrient such as calcium or magnesium or zinc. Every single molecule of excess Vitamin C that gets dumped in your urine steals from you an important mineral nutrient.

Do you know that Vitamin C will particularly cause a deficiency in the essential trace mineral copper?

Do you know that excess Vitamin C will actually cause high cholesterol?

Do you know that excessive Vitamin C can destroy the pH control of certain patients making them more susceptible to certain physical and mental conditions?

Do you know that Vitamin C depletes the body of important minerals such as calcium and magnesium?

Do you know that Vitamin C can so deplete a person of copper that the blood vessels begin to break down and the heart is weakened?

Do you know that Vitamin C can elevate cholesterol in certain patients?

Do you know that excess Vitamin C can damage the DNA (the genetic material inside each of your cells) and also damage cell membranes because of its oxidant (not anti-oxidant) activity?

Do you know that because it is such a strong oxidant (not anti-oxidant) more than 500 milligrams of Vitamin C will cause the formation in your DNA of oxoadenine, a powerfully damaging toxin which particularly will harm the heart and other organs?

Do you know that Vitamin C will convert the mineral iron to a form that damages the blood vessels and leads to hardening of the arteries and heart blockage?

Do you know that Vitamin C can auto-oxidize, and instead of being an anti-oxidant to protect you against free radical damage, will actually cause free radical damage?

This oxidation of Vitamin C occurs most easily in the presence of minerals such as iron, manganese, and chromium. When excess Vitamin C is taken with these mineral nutrients you are particularly likely to suffer free radical damage.

Do you know that excess Vitamin C will cause the formation of the toxic chemical pentosadine, a marker of premature aging and tissue destruction?

Do you know that Vitamin C causes destruction of proteins in your body that will accelerate the aging process?

This acceleration of aging by Vitamin C is particularly pronounced in anyone with a diabetic tendency. The protein destructive effects of Vitamin C are particularly associated with cataract formation.

Do you know that Vitamin C in doses greater than 180 milligrams is a total waste of money because it is not absorbed and tends to cause gas and bloating in your intestinal tract?

Eighty to ninety percent of Vitamin C is absorbed up to a dose of 180 milligrams, but beyond that, absorption decreases rapidly so that at 5000 milligrams doses only 24% is absorbed, while the rest just irritates your digestive system.




This is apparently from a Chiropractor's member-only site?!? Ronald J. Grisanti ? YourMedicalDetective.com? Although your link works.

We looked over his web sites (free portion) and I would agree with about 90% of the stories this fellow has posted. He does not appear to be overly influenced by Big Pharma. He has simply fallen for much of the false information posted by "naturalists" and others around the Internet. And vitamin C causing harm is always big news and makes people curious.

I suppose we should take the time to debate each and every point.. Big sigh..

Quote:
#1 Do you know that Vitamin C depletes your body of many mineral and trace mineral nutrients?



The inaccurate word is deplete. A better word is regulate or balance. As Ralph points out, most living beings make their own vitamin C 24/7 and they would all suffer such imbalances if vitamin C actually depleted minerals.

Quote:
#2 The truth is that your kidneys cannot excrete Vitamin C at all without combining it with an important mineral nutrient such as calcium or magnesium or zinc. Every single molecule of excess Vitamin C that gets dumped in your urine steals from you an important mineral nutrient.


If true, same logical inconsistency as #1 and same problem with all the other animal species.

Searching for any support for the assertion that "kidneys cannot excrete vitamin C at all without combining it with an important mineral" I found this excellent description http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Antioxida ... aminC.html (Does not answer this particular question, but is a great reference.)

Medicine rarely studies more than 200 mg of vitamin C making it difficult to find a scientific reference for these assertions regarding higher dosages. When Pauling describes the vitamin C "pumps" in the kidney, he does not mention a requirement for a mineral, but it is likely that most ascorbate in the blood is bound to something, e.g. sodium, so that any excreted via the kidney above the threshold would be attached to some negatively charge ion. If anyone finds more information on the renal threshold, please post.

Rather than itemize, does anyone have a particular question? Yes, Vitamin C regulates cholesterol, so that in people making too little, it would actually raise cholesterol to around 180 mg/dl. (See Ginter in Clinical Studies). So the statement that "vitamin C elevates cholesterol in some people" is true, but a fairer assertion is that it lowers cholesterol in the vast majority, etc. All of these assertions fail for the same reason, they are not balanced.

The not absorbed argument has been dealt with too. If not absorbed, vitamin C causes gas and diarrhea, so the 18,000 mg I take daily is "absorbed". The argument is utilization.

Oh and if you read his 4 references - abstracts - there is no support for any of his assertions. The first showed a slight depletion in copper - but only in copper deficient monkees. Actually, I found this study reassuring as there is no strong effect of higher vitamin C on copper levels.

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Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:37 am
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Post Re: Can we take too much ascorbate.....
Well I am not sure, if we know whether every species is at their optimum copper level. Since our method of acquring C is different from animals, they may not be the perfect model for nutrient absorption conflicts with vitamin C.

I will agree that most of the C does not make into our systems. The gut is not a great way to get C. The lipisome based C may be better, but it is pricey.

Ralph Lotz wrote:
What about the 4,000 mammals that make C in their livers?
Do they have copper deficiencies?

Overzealous supplementation with zinc is a more plausible reason for copper deficiency.

Pauling figured that we only utilize about 1/2 of the C we ingest because of digestion and assimilation barriers.


Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:52 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Trace Minerals Become Poisons
Quote:
Well I am not sure, if we know whether every species is at their optimum copper level.


Because of copper water pipes in the USA, it is a) unlikley humans would suffer a copper deficiency, and b) it would be more likely studies would "notice" more copper in the urine.

Animals are likely to get much less copper, yet they make the large amounts of ascorbate.

As Pauling points out, while vitamins in almost any amount are essentially non toxic, trace minerals become poisons in high amounts. Vitamins and not equivalent to minerals.

I'd be interested in copper studies in guinea pigs.

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:02 am
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Using the google sitesearch I searched Pubmed for relevant studies. Click on highlighted words for links:
This study found decreased copper absorption in rats fed 10 grams per kilogram of bodyweight of ascorbic acid. That would be almost 900 grams for me. The excretion of copper decreased once a deficiency set in, showing the body has homeostatic mechanisms in place.
.This study found a slight decrease in serum copper levels when the diet was deficient in copper.
Sucrose, according to this study, interferes with copper absorption. Another reason to replace sucrose with ascorbate.

Other studies are available, and most show that ascorbic acid has a negative effect only in the presence of marginal copper levels. Thus I would supplement zinc and copper, as from a good multimineral.


Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:31 pm
Vitamin C Master
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Post Re: Trace Minerals Become Poisons
ofonorow wrote:
Quote:

Because of copper water pipes in the USA, it is a) unlikley humans would suffer a copper deficiency, and b) it would be more likely studies would "notice" more copper in the urine.



I use RO or distilled water myself. Copper is one of the reasons I do so. Copper may be the next lead from some stories I have read.

I use a copper gluconate supplement. Your reason B is a great point.


Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:13 pm
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Post 
Folks,

Copper is a whole complicated subject. It's an essential mineral, so it can't really be compared to lead. A person can have a lack of it or an excess. Nowadays, for various reasons, an excess is more common and more problematic, but nothing can usually be assumed. Many pre- and post-menopausal women, if they have excess estrogen in proportion to progesterone, may have excess copper.

The copper in a multivitamin/mineral is usually enough, but may be too much if there is a copper excess in the body. Most people would be better off without copper in the multi. The best way to get a good idea about copper is through a hair mineral analysis. This will show important things such as the ratio between copper and zinc, as well as the levels of the minerals. If there is too much copper, it may cause zinc depletion and supplementation of zinc will correct it while removing the excess copper. The two have the same oxidation state, 2+, and they compete. When I give zinc supplementation to people, I usually have them take zinc for a month or two alone, then use a supplement containing zinc and copper at a ratio of 8 or 10:1. Copper deficiency is also dangerous, since there are many copper-dependent enzymes. If I remember correctly, copper plays a role in the binding of iron in hemoglobin.

Mineral balance is extremely complex, and professional guidance is often needed.

Dolev


Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:41 pm
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Vitamin C Master
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Post 
My comparison of copper to lead is in plumbing. Fluoride and other chemicals can leach copper from the pipes. In fact, copper plumbing is known to have a high failure rate of pinhole leaks.


Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:18 pm
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