Lack of Vitamin C Linked to Respiratory Disorders

[ofonorow]

[ofonorow]

Dr. Harri Hemila sent me these two links of his work:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_n9469932

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/a ... 1/art00026

Vitamin C Supplementation and Respiratory Infections - a Systematic Review

Eight of these trials were double blind and placebo controlled and seven were randomized. Five small trials found a statistically significant 45 to 91% reduction in common cold incidence in the vitamin C group. These trials were short and the participants were under heavy exertion during the trial. Furthermore, three other trials found a statistically significant 80 to 100% reduction in the incidence of pneumonia in the vitamin C group.

[Jacob-Oram]

[rasarver]

You two have spent a lot of time and effort to make these excellent posts. Thanks and keep up the good work. Everyone should take (lots of) vitmain C!

[VanCanada]

Everyone should take (lots of) vitmain C!

This is quite the sweeping statement.
(It's curious how the moderator lets some go without a peep, like this one, but not others, eh?)
Let's keep in mind that lots is not for everyone, that is the few exceptions that Stephen Sheffrey so aptly describes in his book Vitamin C: How Best to Use It
http://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-How-Best-Second-Edition/dp/0962937231/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1334769195&sr=8-3

This quote is from the book's Amazon page:

(Amazon.com) Review
"...distills the author's lengthy review of the literature on the clinical uses of vitamin C...in an easy conversational style." -- Linus Pauling Institute Newsletter

"...extremely informative and useful...logical arguments and analysis, thorough references, common-sense approach, and clear language." -- Pauling Institute Newsletter, summer, 01

About the Author
Dr. Sheffrey, a former clinical instructor at University of Michigan School of Dentistry and former dental columnist for the Detroit Free Press, began a 6,000-hour review of the literature on vitamin C in 1986. He has written and lectured on C since 1992 and has sent at no charge 228,000 pamphlets to doctors in the U.S.

Be well everyone.

[Jacquie]

Let's keep in mind that lots is not for everyone, that is the few exceptions that Stephen Sheffrey so aptly describes in his book Vitamin C: How Best to Use It

Which exceptions are you referring to? People with low G6PD or hemochromatosis? Or the "20% of those who try high doses orally" and "experience distressing side effects". When it comes to that, Sheffrey didn't cite any studies backing that 20% figure, and I'd really like to know what he's basing it on. Also, he didn't say whether that "20%" had temporary or permanent distressing side effects, nor what specific doses caused this. Anyone can get diarrhea from C, if they take a large enough dose. So I wouldn't rely on this particular claim, unless Sheffrey wants to back it with something.

As to those with low G6PD, oral doses do not typically cause trouble; it's IV dosing they have to be careful of. And for hemochromatosis, better that they restrict their iron intake than their C intake.

[majkinetor]

[ofonorow]

I don't know, perhaps autoimmune disorders should be carefully monitored.
For instance, if we have person with some problem in controlling immune response, extra vitamin C might make collateral damage worse.

Going through this myself, and now understanding what "auto immune" is, I'd say that vitamin C is beneficial in almost all respects. The body is deficient in cortisol, which is required to modulate/regulate the immune response. Without cortisol, the body will inflame all over, starting in joints, but also muscles, bones, etc. There are high concentrations of vitamin C in the adrenal cortex. They must be there for a reason, and for most people, deficient in vitamin C, it is likely that vitamin C intake will improve adrenal function, and thus ameliorate their "autoimmune disorder" caused by a hormonal (cortisol) deficiency.

Furthermore, the body without cortisol "attacks" any tissue it thinks is in need of an immune response. For example, if I put a ring on my finger, in a few days it feels very painful, like it should fall off, but the other nine finger are fine. Also the arm I sleep on is the first to inflame, etc. Vitamin C does help. Probably by removing toxins and healing various trouble spots. IV/C will make RA sufferers much more comfortable and should be standard treatment. (My mother, with RA, discovered long ago that oral vitamin C was the only supplement that gave her relief.)

So what I have learned is that so called "autoimmune" disorders are most likely the immune system on over drive. My newly acquired knowledge is that 3 to 9 mg (prednizone equivalent) of cortisol is enough to keep the immune system in check.
Vitamin C should help both with maintaining proper endogenous cortisol production and also with keeping the general tissues healthy and toxin free.

[majkinetor]

What if body isn't deficient in cortisol, but autoimmunity is caused by some other factor. For instance it could be proliferation of neutrophils that refuse to die for some reason. Then higher levels of C mean higher oxidative burst by neutrophils means more collateral damage.

So what I have learned is that so called "autoimmune" disorders are most likely the immune system on over drive.

Or it could be mycobacteria or some other invisible pathogen. In that case, C would really be optimal as it brings mycobacteria to dormancy state.

Autoimmunity is multifactorial. In some circumstances there MAY BE a problem, no matter how unlikely it is.

[VanCanada]

Which exceptions are you referring to? People with low G6PD or hemochromatosis?

I don't have the book in front of me but that sounds right or at least partly right. He says everyone should get, if I remember right, their iron load status tested before embarking on megadose vitamin C intake, in case they are one of the unlucky few who should not consume megadoses. And that once you embark you should be prepared to commit to regular, frequent use for the rest of your life or else risk rebound scurvy.

[ofonorow]

We've covered "rebound scurvy" a great length. It is perhaps a 48 hour process. It can be avoided by slowly decreasing high vitamin C, but who in their right mind would want to stop vitamin C after being on a high (optimal) dose?

What if body isn't deficient in cortisol, but autoimmunity is caused by some other factor.

It is hard to prove (the very act of measuring cortisol can affect the measurement - stress) which is one reason this is not widely accepted. (The other reason is that a lot of money is being made with the new RA drugs and little money can be made with prednizone/methotrexate).

But in my case (highest RA Factor my doctors have ever seen) I get full blown Rheumatoid Arthritis without prednizone (cortisol analog) and I AM PERFECTLY FINE with 8 mg of prednizone (cortisol) daily.

There are many other similar diseases (e.g. fibromyalgia) which are painful all over, and there are several other adrenal hormones.

I assume it is possible for the adrenals to become weak and have low output causing other "auto immune" disorders. Perhaps Lupus, for example, may have other causes/treatments. (Lack of endogneous DHEA for example?) I am just saying that not only in my case, but in a 25 year practice of a world-renown rheumatologist, RA can be easily treated at very little cost.

I was struck when my alternative doctor told me that he doesn't believe there is "any such thing as an autoimmune disease", meaning a condition where the body falsely attacks self. (He did say that symptoms can occur from a "leaky gut syndrome", and I think this may be happen to low mercury excretors exposed to mercury.)

In a perfect world, a person presents "autoimmune symptoms" (joint pain), and is given cortisol. If the pain goes away - case closed. Person is on cortisol until their own glands become active again (something like taking vitamin C daily because of GULO.) Famous rheumatologist has showed that with methotextrate - most people can wean down to as low as 1 to 5 mg daily. Live normal, otherwise healthy lives.

If cortisol does not fix the problem - then yes, there is some other issue. (But if I were the doc, my next step would be to measure all adrenal hormones looking for a deficiency.

[majkinetor]

and I AM PERFECTLY FINE with 8 mg of prednizone (cortisol) daily.

How do you know ? You mean, you have no sympthoms. The same would happen if you took morphine. How do we know that you are not using cortisol too much, which attenuates immunity too much so that other pathogens can enjoy. What if, as the other doctor said, autoimmunity is because of leaky gut or some other pathogen...

How do you expect adrenals to start working if you supply hormones its making ? It doesn't work that way. Use it or loose it. Adrenal atrophy is well known effect of corticosteroid therapy like prednisone.

Like you see, its too much speculation and too little evidence.

[VanCanada]

We've covered "rebound scurvy" a great length. It is perhaps a 48 hour process. It can be avoided by slowly decreasing high vitamin C, but who in their right mind would want to stop vitamin C after being on a high (optimal) dose?

Medical schools cover statin drugs at great length. Big Pharma drug reps probably covered Vioxx at great length in their day. You'll have to come up with a better argument than that. More meat and less filler please.

I very much doubt you have read the Sheffrey book since you have neatly sidestepped the very real, serious issues he raises. For example, you are assuming (once again making an "ass" out of "u" and "me" {ass-u-me}) that rebound scurvy can be someone's choice in all cases at all times. Your logic, once again, doesn't compute.

How can someone in a hospital setting (particularly if they are unconscious) avoid rebound scurvy?

It's possible to do - perhaps (like the famous case of the man in New Zealand who had his family fighting the hospital big wigs on his behalf.) But not something a discussion forum trying to be serious about vitamin C should just brush aside like you just tried to do.

[ofonorow]

And you haven't read Pauling, since you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

My point was to search, rather than rehash. If you insist:
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=619&hilit=rebound+scurvy

Hi,
I'm wondering why Dottore can be so sure that rebound scurvy occurs 'all the time'. Since so few big studies are done with large amounts of Vitamin C what clinical proof can Dottore provide that rebound scruvy occurs all that much. Also how long does it last since bodies are homeostatic and tend to even out extremes over time? I have stopped taking 15,000 mg of C for a few days and just observed myself slowly receding to my previous chronic conditions - stuffy sinuses and joint pains.

Awaiting your response
John

"The discontinuation (rebound) effect may not be very important for most people" - Linus Pauling, HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER (Page 265, Softcover, 1986)

An article regarding the dangers of Vitamin C overdose
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7751&p=19509&hilit=rebound+scurvy#p19509

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Everyone who takes a lot of vitamin C and stops, goes through it. Without a single known death.