Vitamin C and Vitamin P

What is vitamin C? Is there such a thing as a vitamin C complex? Why do so many people now believe in the complex?

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BimLanders

Vitamin C and Vitamin P

Post Number:#1  Post by BimLanders » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:45 am

I don't think that this issue has been addressed here, so I'll play devil's advocate.

From Westonaprice.org, this assertion is made:

...megadoses of isolated ascorbic acid may lead to imbalances and deficiencies in vitamin P.


Full article: http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrit ... rimer.html

It should be noted that this assertion is not supported with any references, but it seems unlikely that it would be made up out of thin air, due to the good reputation of this website. Can anyone find a reference for this? I'm sorry to ask someone else to do the work on this subject, but I'm pressed for time at the moment. I'll search later tonight if I have time.

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For a time, they thought there was vitamin P

Post Number:#2  Post by ofonorow » Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:56 pm

I bet Ralph Lotz knows more about this off the top of my head, but if my memory serves, early on in the vitamin C work, Svent Gigorni thought that something else cured scurvy (later changed his mind) and the existence of another vitamin was postulated, a vitamin P made up of bioflavonoids. I don't think this idea survived the scientific shake-out process. (For example, people survive indefinitely on Ensure, which contains no vitamin P. When the product was first released, the fact that biotin was a vitamin was not known, and people died until they added Biotin to the formula.)

But I am surprised the Weston Price posted this.

In their defense, after I challenged Sally Faloon - one of their experts called to learn more, and seemed appreciative and interested. But I'm not sure they have changed any of their advice.
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Ralph Lotz
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Bioflavonoids, Vitamin P and Inflammation

Post Number:#3  Post by Ralph Lotz » Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:50 pm

This article will shed some light on Vitamin P:

http://www.healthy.net/scr/interview.asp?Id=172
"Unless we put medical freedom into the constitution...medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship..force people who wish doctors and treatment of their own choice to submit to only what..dictating outfit offers." Dr. Benjamin Rush

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Excellent

Post Number:#4  Post by ofonorow » Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:40 am

Thanks Ralph, that is an excellent discussion, although somewhat long. I'll highlite a few of my favorite quotes here for those that won't read the entire article

"However, in 1938, Dr. Szent-Gyorgyi reported that he could not substantiate that bioflavonoids were truly essential nutrients.

"Occasionally, Dr. Szent-Gyorgyi and I would discuss the role of bioflavonoids as nutrients, and that Dr. Szent-Gyorgyi still thought that some good modern research would clarify the "essential or nearly essential" importance of bioflavonoids.

"In the foreword to one of Professor Miklos Gabor's books, Dr. Szent-Gyorgyi remarked in 1972, "American science did not take in a friendly spirit to vitamin P and the name "vitamin" was dropped. More than that, discussions have been going on to strike the flavones altogether from the lists of (nutrients and) drugs, since no therapeutic action has been found. I think the contradiction is due to the fact that in the USA, citrus fruits belong to people's regular daily diet. They are rich in flavones, so a (total) lack in flavones is very rare, and if there is no deficiency, a vitamin has no action. In contrast to this, in countries where citrus fruits are expensive, the lack of flavones may cause trouble and their medication may show favorable effects. While these discussions were going on, important experimental material was collected in Hungary which, in my mind, leaves no doubt about the vitamin nature and the biological activity of flavones. "

"Keep in mind that Dr. Szent-Gyorgyi's experiments indicated that at least a trace of vitamin C must be present to observe the vitamin-like effect of the bioflavonoids.

"vitamin P requires for its activity the presence of ascorbic acid. A scurvy diet frequently contains traces which in themselves have no influence on the development of scurvy, but enable vitamin P to act. In the total absence of ascorbic acid, vitamin P is inactive." [Nature 140:426;1937]

"So, if low capillary resistance is common in people with high blood pressure, and this is a major factor that leads to stroke and retinal hemorrhage, your study is of major importance to the millions of people with high blood pressure. Your findings could drastically reduce the incidence of strokes. Please elaborate on your study.

"Gabor: It has long been known that the capillary resistance is pathologically decreased in a considerable proportion of hypertensive persons [Griffith and Lindauer, 1944; Kuchmeister and Scharfe, 1950; Gough, 1962; Davis and Landau, 1970; etc.]


After we demonstrated the permeability-decreasing action of haematoxylin compounds, we examined their ability to normalize lowered capillary resistance. The permeability of capillaries is quite important to health, and the effect of various nutrients on capillary permeability fascinates me. My first book deals with the pharmacology of capillary resistance, including the effects of bioflavonoids

Evidence is lacking that bioflavonoids are essential nutrients. Is that because they are not essential or is it merely because that no diets have been developed that are totally free of bioflavonoids? I note that in the scientific literature you have studied the blood brain barrier and aorta structural abnormalities produced by what you call "P avitaminosis" (a deficiency of "vitamin P") produced by flavonoid-free diets. Would you please elaborate a little for us on "P avitaminosis? Do humans and other animals get enough bioflavonoids in their experimental or normal diets to prevent a recognized bioflavonoid deficiency from being observed?



Notes:

1. Vitamin C and Vitamin P (if it exists, i.e. certain bioflavonoids) are interrelated, but it is a mistake to confuse what these men are saying as "Vitamin P is thus the "real" vitamin C" .

2. Vitamin P still fails the "ensure" test, so while valuable to health, it is quite certainly NOT essential

3. Since capillary fragility is a key risk factor in unstable plaques (according to Levy) this work could be very important for preventing MIs (heart attacks).

Also, the following (Zucic) is quite interesting in view of our other discussion. If cancer proteins are indeed of a different color, then the chirality may explain the color difference!


He had observed that structural proteins in cells are the color of "a good Swiss chocolate." The color is due to the presence of an electron transfer system in structural proteins which transforms them into free radicals. However, the structural proteins in cancer cells are colorless, indicating that their electron acceptors are missing or have been damaged.


All in all, quite a good article!
Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath

Van Carman
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Bioflavinoids

Post Number:#5  Post by Van Carman » Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:51 pm

Lately when eating an orange,I eat the peel as well for the potentiating effect of the bioflavinoids.For the waxed oranges and tangerines,I put them in boiling water for a minute or two which seems to get rid of this unwanted product.I imagine the sailing vessel sailors ate the limes,peel and all. Thanks,Van
cinnamon and scurvy

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Boiling?

Post Number:#6  Post by ofonorow » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:26 am

hmmmm One would think that boiling would harm any vitamin C content in the fruit
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BimLanders

Post Number:#7  Post by BimLanders » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:14 am

I'm lucky to have a girlfriend with a bountiful citrus grove. Grapefruit, lemons, navels, valencias, clementine tangerines (the best!), blood oranges, mineola tangelos, and kumquats. I do wish that her family would plant some non-citrus stuff for me. :) The funny thing is that her family rarely eats any of these fruits that they pay so much money to keep watered. They are happy when I take some off their hands.

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Orange is just barely Warm

Post Number:#8  Post by Van Carman » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:17 pm

One or two minutes and this just warms the peel to get rid of the wax.Thanks,Van
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Kathy

Re: Boiling?

Post Number:#9  Post by Kathy » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:39 pm

ofonorow wrote:hmmmm One would think that boiling would harm any vitamin C content in the fruit


Yes, I would think so. But, does it harm the bioflavanoids?

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Bioflavinoids and Heat

Post Number:#10  Post by Van Carman » Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:40 pm

I dont think the peel is affected even in the two minutes in boiling water.When you remove the orange,the outer surface is just barely warm.The best way is to get unwaxed citrus fruits.Remember the peel is full of phenols{which are antioxidants}Thanks ,Van
cinnamon and scurvy

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Post Number:#11  Post by rider » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:42 am

A glass of red wine does the trick too...
:D
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