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 Origin of 'vitamin C complex' errata 
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Post Re: whole food form vitamin c
blueskymyne wrote:
Let food be your medicine"- Linus Pauling. Go ahead and argue with the man himself.



It's odd that you keep quoting Linus Pauling when he is the quintessential advocate of high (animal level) doses of vit C
and considered ascorbate as synonymous with vitamin C. In addition, your assertion about B12 depletion is contradicted
by Pauling.

Your logic regarding the current state of our evolution is flawed. The most compelling logic is that since the rest of the animal world
can sythesise their own vitamin C and since all those different species have not naturally selected this feature out over many
more millions of years than humans have been around, it is not at all reasonable to assume that those few who have lost
this ability are somehow immune, are somehow 'correct' just because they are this way. It is far more logical to view this
loss of synthesis ability as a defect unless you can prove why it is we do not need similar amounts.

The idea that "we got by just fine" is not scientific or logical. As I said before DNA doesn't care how long you live or how healthy
you are as long as you reproduce and survive. You also do not take into account the massive changes in habitat and
diet humans have migrated to since that enzyme was not carried over for whatever reason. So who's to say that
we have not now regained the need for this ability but that evolution has not had time to re-instate it?

All that ranting about the food producers and synthetic this and that is just totally irrelevant, regardless of its accuracy.

CODEX is not an illusion it is very real and its biggest opponents are on the natural product, supplements, whole foods etc
side of the fence. The real enemy, the big pharma companies, love it.

The issue about ascobic acid can be broken down to a rather simple equation; Setting aside for a moment any speculation
about evolution or natural selection etc. If the rest of the animal world is synthesising the quantities of ascorbic acid that
they do everyday, then in order to argue that humans do not need a similar amount you must show the reason why
because we certainly cannot get anywhere near that level on even a very healthy diet without supplementation.

Arguments about only needing vit C as a 'complex' are without any factual basis when the rest of animal world does not
get their vit C this way. Forget comparisons to other vitamins, each vitamin is a very different thing, just because some
may occur in a 'complex' has no logical connection to vitamin C and the ascorbate synthesis of animals is key evidence
to this difference.


Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:33 am
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Vitamin C Master
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Post Re: Good questions
blueskymyne wrote:
Water, sugar, cornsyrup, maltodextrin, calcium caseniate, high-oleic safflower oil, canola oil, soy protein isolate, whey protien concentrate, corn oil, calcium phosphate tribasic, potassium citrate, magnesium phosphate dibasic, natural and artificial flavor, soy lectihin, sodium citrate, magnesium chloride, salt, carrageenan, choline chloride, potassium chloride, ascorbic acid, ferrous sulfate, alpha tocopherhyl acetate, zinc sulfate, niacinamide, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, cupric sulfate, vitamin A palimitate, thiamine chloride hydrocloride, pyridoxine hydrochloride, ribofavin, folic acid, chromium chloride, biotin, sodium molybdate, sodium selenate, potassium iodine, phylloquinone, vitamin d-3 and cyanocobalamin.


So the bulk of this product is water sugar and corn syrup.

Anyone in a hospital that is a cancer patient or suffering from sepsis or other types of severe infection drinking this crap is unaware that sugar fuels cancer tumor growth and suppresses the immune system.


Quote:
Third bulk indgredient: Corn syrup. lol. You have to be kidding me! Why not just give them vitamin enriched soda pop?

I'm not trying to defend the high-carb content of the IV-infusions, but you should keep in mind that as this is an IV-solution they have to give low-molecular-weight carbohydrates such as monosaccharides and disaccharides - it has to be "predigested". So corn syrup infusions (if it doesn't contain anything else than the simple sugars) doesn't necessarily have to be bad. You absorb simple sugars from your gut, not long complex carbohydrates. The issue here is the amount and rate of infusion. Of course the patient needs more carbohydrates than calcium. Carbohydrates would have been one of the bulk ingredients anyway, because it is a macronutrient. It could have been limited to 40-60 grams though and the concentration could have been reduced to allow a slower supply and keep the blood sugar stable.

Quote:
Its dead food. Empty calories, loaded with artery clogging oxidized oils with no essential omega 3, loaded with sugar, artificial flavors, loaded with corn syrup, no enzymes, promotes body-wide inflamation due to the trifecta of harmful oils, feeds diseases like tumors with tons sugar and free unbound iron.

Are there any artificial flavors on your ingredients list? I can't see why one would need artificial flavors anyway in a product that no one will ever taste.

Quote:
This is not food.

No, it's nutrients in a bag.


Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:45 am
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Vitamin C Master
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Post Re: Still avoiding the issue
ofonorow wrote:
And again, where do the Eskimos - no heart disease - get their REQUIRED C complex from?


I just want to add some words to your retorical question.

I attended a lecture a couple of weeks ago where a nutritionist was talking about the eskimos' diet. It is a general opinion that the eskimos lived long on their high-fat low-carb diet. Wether long-lived or not, one have to die of something. This man claimed that it was not uncommon for eskimos (that lived long) to die of arteries bursting and the following internal bleeding. He attributed this to a low vitamin C intake*. I can not validate this in any way, but doesn't seem too unlikely.

I don't know how much vitamin C the eskimos ingested, but I can assume that they would have gotten some from livers and/or suprarenal glands from animals. This however would probably not have been "C complex", but pure ascorbate.

*It might not have been low compared to today's average intakes.


Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:06 am
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Post Re: whole food form vitamin c
blueskymyne wrote:
The British sailors proved it, the Antarctic explorers proved it and Owen himself just posted a link stating that food source vitamin c cuts risk of stomach cancer. So yeah I bought it hook line and sinker. Nature is not flawed, never has been.


You are making a wrong conclusion. You can not conclude that nature is not flawed only because a food source vitamin c cuts risk of stomach cancer. And that does not mean that pure ascorbic acid won't do the same.

Quote:
In this way it takes much less for its effects and thats why it was discovered by the Antarctic team that it only took one lime to reverse the condition of scurvy and not large bowell tollerance doses of ascorbic acid or 50 oranges per man.


It doesn't take much ascorbic acid to cure acute scurvy. Scurvy can be cured with a lot less than bowel tolerance doses. The fact that oranges can prevent scurvy doesn't mean that oranges are superior to pure ascorbic acid.

Quote:
Segent Goyrski < spell that right? even he said he couldnt cure scurvy in the lab using ascorbic acid extract alone.

That is new to me. Where have you read/heard that?

I doubt you spelled that right.

Quote:
There can be no better source of vitamin C, real vitamin C than fruits and vegetables. Thats right, vegetables as in broccoli which contains high amounts of vitamin c provided you dont microwave it.

I wouldn't say 0,0009% is high amounts. Why not eat fruits/vegetables and pure ascorbic acid?

It is true that flavonoids might be beneficial, but they are not regarded essential.

Quote:
"Let food be your medicine"- Linus Pauling. Go ahead and argue with the man himself.

Actually it was Hippocrates who said that. Pauling might have quoted him.

“Let thy food be thy medicine and thy medicine be thy food.”
--Hippocrates (460-377 B.C.)


Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:52 am
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Post 
Albert Szent-Györgyi


Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:56 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post The Perfect Experiment
Great posts so far and a good discussion!

I have been rereading the posts from vitamin C complex advocates, trying to better understand their arguments. One argument seems to be based on evolution. (If we needed so much, why are we here?) And the corollary seems to be that we who recommend high vitamin C intake are "silly" given the fact that man evolved to this point without the ability to make any vitamin C.

One can understand why many people would doubt that humans really require massive oral intakes or "megadose" vitamin C. (This is the essence of the old-fashioned " vitamin C is only a vitamin" theory.) This attitude is one many medical doctors take. And it has been addressed here to some extent, (but the posts on the diets of early humans were apparently old and no longer exist in toto.)

What follows is another attempt to explain why modern human's ascorbate requirements are much higher than primitive man's were.

Dr. Archie Kalokerinos experience in Australia can be considered an important experiment between civilizations. As related in his landmark book EVERY SECOND CHILD, the health problems of modern humans is caused by their modern diets (and immunizations!). The primitive aborigines lived well on their primitive diet, but succumbed to the ravages of Western civilization, including and especially scurvy, as soon as they adopted the high-sugar, highly processed food diet of modern Australians.

Thus the answer why humans were able to survive without the endogenous ability to produce ascorbate, an ability that virtually every other species requires for its survival, has everything to do with the diet of early man prior to agriculture.

EVERY SECOND CHILD

Anyone who believes in a vitamin C complex, or doubts that Vitamin C is really vitamin C, should read Dr. Kalokerinos’s book. In a nutshell, as a young doctor, Archie was sent by the Australian government to live with aborigines and find out what was killing every other baby soon after birth. Dr. Kalokerinos investigated for more than a year, feeling hopeless in the face of a heart-breaking epidemic. Finally, he got the idea to try vitamin C. The vitamin C shots worked immediately. It turned out that the babies were suffering frank scurvy, and one shot could revive them back to normal in no time, even just moments before what his experience had taught him would be their last. A miracle. The child mortality rate dropped from 50% to 0.

So, was Archie made a National hero? Hardly, the rest of the book describes the unbelievable resistance he met in the orthodox medical establishment. But politics aside, this experience can teach us many things.

First, on their primitive diet, the aborigines health was good and their children did not generally die young. It was only after they were encouraged to adopt the "modern" western, highly processed food diet, that their children began dying. So this "experiment" shows us that people with similar genetic characteristics who live well on a primitive diet, suffer frank scurvy, almost from birth, on a modern diet.

Second, the vitamin C isolate instantly saved these children’s lives, not a vitamin C complex. (I would challenge any vitamin C complex advocate - at their own risk - to put the so-called C-complex in an IV and accept the complex intravenously themselves. Any takers? Of course not. They can’t even define what the C-complex is.)

Interesting tribute to Kalokerinos
http://www.nutri.com/wn/kt.html
Quote:
Pauling agrees with Archie's conclusion that the high infant mortality rate among Aborigines is due to immunizations and a low body content of vitamin C and writes that "Dr Kalokerinos deserves much credit for making these discoveries." Dr Pauling, in another fine Foreword, this one to the forthcoming book by Dettman and Kalokerinos, "Vitamin C - Nature's Miraculous Healing Missile", writes of his disappointment after nearly 20 years since "Every Second Child" first appeared, and that "even today none of the many Crib Death organizations will even discuss vitamin C.


I would like the advocates to explain why the C-complex is not simply a diversionary tactic? If you can't explain what it really is, (Science has determined the nature of Ascorbic Acid), you can't explain why animals don't make it, or why primitive cultures can live without it, and your quotes to the great grand father of Vitamin C are wrong, or taken out of context, and finally with an explanation of how we could have evolved to require less vitamin C on a primitive diet, I don't understand the appeal of the Complex idea?

p.s.
If I were in charge of a clandestine group charged with keeping knowledge of vitamin C from the public, I don't know if I would have been smart enough to come up with the "Natural C Complex" idea, but it is brilliant. It either makes well-meaning advocates (mostly Chiropractors who listen to Standard Process) look silly in the eyes of medical doctors and scientists, or, should the idea take hold (as it apparently has), it would help mask the value of high doses of the pure isolate! The C-complex movement is a Win-Win-Win for Big Pharma.

I conclude that the C-complex is a diversionary tactic designed by someone behind the scenes to hide the benefits of vitamin C from the public. (I am not trying to smear all the well meaning people who are supporting it - they are simply naive.)

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Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:15 am
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Post Re: The Perfect Experiment
ofonorow wrote:
One argument seems to be based on evolution. (If we needed so much, why are we here?) And the corollary seems to be that we who recommend high vitamin C intake are "silly" given the fact that man evolved to this point without the ability to make any vitamin C.



My reply to that argument, as I said in my comment previously, is that when one looks at the big picture, (that all these other animals still have their ascorbate synthesis capability), which would indicate that it is a very much needed trait or it would have been naturally selected out in all these different animal species. So it is far more logical to conclude that the few who lack this enzyme are the abnormality, not the other way around. That we survived could be attributed to the diet of the 'hunter-gatherer' and other factors but survival alone is not conclusive evidence of optimal health.

Arguments involving the how's and why's of evolution are largely speculative anyway. So the bottom line comes back to comparisons with all these other animals and what logical argument is there that we need significantly less AA than the synthesising mammals or that we need something different to what those animals are getting and have been for more millions of years than our ancestors.


Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:44 pm
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Post several thoughts about this
joiv wrote:
ofonorow wrote:
And again, where do the Eskimos - no heart disease - get their REQUIRED C complex from?


I just want to add some words to your retorical question.

I attended a lecture a couple of weeks ago where a nutritionist was talking about the eskimos' diet. It is a general opinion that the eskimos lived long on their high-fat low-carb diet. Wether long-lived or not, one have to die of something. This man claimed that it was not uncommon for eskimos (that lived long) to die of arteries bursting and the following internal bleeding. He attributed this to a low vitamin C intake*. I can not validate this in any way, but doesn't seem too unlikely.

I don't know how much vitamin C the eskimos ingested, but I can assume that they would have gotten some from livers and/or suprarenal glands from animals. This however would probably not have been "C complex", but pure ascorbate.

*It might not have been low compared to today's average intakes.


Maybe someone is willing and able to update this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutin

C complex is relatively so new on the scene it could easily be called a red herring among other things.

There are multiple reasons for "burst" arteries. Electrolyte imbalance comes readily to mind. Not sure how that fits in, but I hoped it might spur comment.

Even given a genuinely healthy life and environment, aging eventually impairs a body's ability to function optimally. Inefficient or non-utilization of vitamin c would immediately affect the liver and adrenal glands which affects everything that depends on them. Could apply to anyone, anywhere.

Theodore Baroody presents pertinent perspectives in his book Alkalize or Die. For this discussion, one poignant and obvious conclusion is the meat and fat diet of far north natives is necessarily opposite from some tropical natives. He suggests if they switched diets completely, suddenly and long term, there would be negative consequences.

An argument for the new short lifespan of eskimos is that they supposedly maintained exceptional longevity before being almost completely restricted to refined western foods.


Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:04 am
Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Rutin
Catherine,
Thanks for posting, I've enjoyed reading them.

However, I'm not following the last one (above). What bothered you about the rutin write-up?

Quote:
Maybe someone is willing and able to update this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutin


The issue in this forum is whether Ascorbic acid is vitamin C, or whether it is only a "shell" the protects the "real" vitamin C - as the naturalist purist argue. The Complex is supposedly a bioflavonoid complex, that from memory, includes rutin, copper, tryosine and probably other unspecified components.

Now the business about the Eskimo arteries bursting is new - we had discussed the early findings that Pauling discussed in HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER. The natives, prior to a Western Diet, lived long and prospered on mostly Blubber - high fat. (This fact attracted Pauling's interest because of the question about how they obtained enough vitamin C to survive, and not only survive, but survive without heart disease!?! His answer was that on their diet, there was enough vitamin C in the uncooked meat.)

This caused a long and lively discussion as to whether fat really causes heart disease, and as Pauling noted, whether vitamin C is really necessary? (We learned that the Intuit sliced and ate adrenal glands, probably to get their ascorbate, etc.)

But it would make sense that their arteries would burst, especially now, from low vitamin C, if they truly have adopted a more modern diet.

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Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:45 am
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Post Re: Rutin
ofonorow wrote:
Catherine,
Thanks for posting, I've enjoyed reading them.

However, I'm not following the last one (above). What bothered you about the rutin write-up?

Quote:
Maybe someone is willing and able to update this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutin


The issue in this forum is whether Ascorbic acid is vitamin C, or whether it is only a "shell" the protects the "real" vitamin C - as the naturalist purist argue. The Complex is supposedly a bioflavonoid complex, that from memory, includes rutin, copper, tryosine and probably other unspecified components.

Now the business about the Eskimo arteries bursting is new - we had discussed the early findings that Pauling discussed in HOW TO LIVE LONGER AND FEEL BETTER. The natives, prior to a Western Diet, lived long and prospered on mostly Blubber - high fat. (This fact attracted Pauling's interest because of the question about how they obtained enough vitamin C to survive, and not only survive, but survive without heart disease!?! His answer was that on their diet, there was enough vitamin C in the uncooked meat.)

This caused a long and lively discussion as to whether fat really causes heart disease, and as Pauling noted, whether vitamin C is really necessary? (We learned that the Intuit sliced and ate adrenal glands, probably to get their ascorbate, etc.)

But it would make sense that their arteries would burst, especially now, from low vitamin C, if they truly have adopted a more modern diet.


The rutin post: a casualty of incomplete thought. Would update it myself, but really don't have more than a superficial grasp of all that I'm learning about simultaneously. My brain didn't kick into gear until about 2 years ago so I'm playing a mean game of catch up. I know next-to-nothing about rutin so I wouldn't know if the information was faulty or not. What I was thinking, because I don't know what Rutin is and you guys do, and since complex c is not in the wikipedia yet, complex c could be added and its components already listed in wikipedia could be updated so fact can proactively be separated from fiction. Seems like a positive way of introducing the truth to readers seeking accurate information who wouldn't know enough to question what they are reading. If someone has the time, it would be a win - win - win for the subject, readers and wikipedia.

As for vitamin c vs complex C and raw meat, I only have an anectodotal responses but they do cover a spectrum of cultural differences and change over time:

1) It's interesting that Roman soldiers were said to maintain their grueling existence by eating organ meats that much of our society (USA) considers scrap, filler or garbage byproducts.

2) The practice of using downer animals is enough to make anyone cringe at the thought of eating raw meat meat. (Not supposed to use downers, but it happens here/USA.)

3) A former mother-in-law used to make fish head soup and it was exactly that. If you got an eye you were considered lucky. With that eye came the responsibility to eat it right or be considered obnoxious and wasteful, to have poor form and bad manners, etc. Somewhere we've lost priorities about what is garbage food and what is not. To some cultures, any non-organ meat is junk because it has less value than organ meats.

4) A friend who lived near Kodiak, Alaska for several years had his family ship food to him from their farm because only refined, processed foods were available where he was located. He said he felt bad for the locals because they had to choose between contaminated seafood or junk shipped in.

5) Researching complex c last year, I noticed the majority of references to it were by those who sold it and very little else.

6) I can personally guarantee that an exhusband who never took complex c, also had the eating habits and digestive tract of a cross between a catfish and billygoat. He did take loads of vitamin c, something he said he learned to do while traveling. Several times I caught him eating what I considered to be rotting meat. He never had a problem after eating it. Twice, thinking I was wrong, I would just taste it to see then be sick for a few days and kicking myself. But we were both right. I always got sick from eating less than perfectly healthy and fresh meat. He could eat anything he wanted and often ate raw meat just because he was in a hurry. What does that say for two people raised in the same area with similar environments and diet? I can say without a doubt, that vitamin c worked just fine without complex c. Complex c had nothing to do with ex's ability to eat things unintended for human consumption.

After learning more about vitamin c, I've found I can eat fresh meat rare without any problems. To stay on the safe side though, I add a 1/4 teaspoon of vitamin c to a cup of water and sip it through meals. Repeated personal experience convinced me that vitamin c alone makes a significant difference.

All that said, even if complex c can't hurt, why bother?

Edited for typos caught later. Probably more.


Last edited by Catherine in Chicago on Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:00 pm
Post 
I know that personal experience can't count as "evidence," but I noticed something the past few weeks about my health. I cut my vitamin C intake to about three grams a day, stopped taking my B-Complex and started using brewer's yeast instead. I stopped my multivitamin, but I continued taking 400iu of vitamin E along with cod liver oil. I made sure that every meal I ate was balanced between meat and vegetables, with at least three servings of healthy green vegetables (mostly organic, even) and whatever fruits I had on hand. I also ate lots of brazil buts, almonds, and walnuts, along with dried and fresh berries in moderation as snacks. I thought to myself, 'hey, at this rate I won't need my supplements because I'm making such an effort to consume healthful whole foods all the time!

I noticed after a few days of this regimen that my energy levels were decreasing, and I had more problems with allergies! Personally, I have the feeling that I have an increased requirement for supplementation because I lived all my life on processed foods and filling myself up on empty carbs.

While, as blueskyme asserts, real foods are the best sources of nutrients and should form the foundation of any solid diet, but many of us live in the burdensome real world, work more hours than humans are meant to with minimal lesuire time. We are constantly exposed to sick people who don't stay home when they most need to. Our air is polluted and contributes to allergies and asthma. Most of our food supply is contaminated in one way or another. Getting C-complex from brocolli and acerola cherries (if one can find acerola) is a good idea, but I don't see these sources as being anywhere NEAR as effective as isolated ascorbic acid. Eating alone isn't cutting it anymore. Man's current state of living is far too removed from paleolithic man, which should be obvious.


Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:37 pm
Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Diamonds in the rough
Thanks for this Catherine..
Quote:
5) Researching complex c last year, I noticed the majority of references to it were by those who sold it and very little else.



I think it is also interesting that the so-called "Real" vitamin C is not in Wikipedia!


As far as eating right, I live in Chicagoland, and I heard the 70-year-old Seattle Sutton speaking at a fund raiser last month. (For those or you elsewhere, Seattle Suttons' Healthy Eating are home delivered meals. She advertises much around here in Chicago.)

I will say that based soley on the commercials (she sounds like a typical dietician) I had no interest in her meals, that is, until I heard her speak. She said one thing that stuck in my mind (and my family have decided to try her program for at least a few months).

Before I tell you what stuck in my mind, I'll give the history. She was a nurse/dietician who married an MD (maybe in the 1950s?) Apparently most of his practice was treating diabetics, and she was responsible for advising his patients on what to eat, then she found herself preparing meals for patients, and then after noticing some remarkable recoveries, got the idea to go into business providing these "healthy" meals. I do remember that she started with $1000 and her business is now $22 million.
Sutton says that her meals are not frozen and so well rounded and healthy (no trans fats, etc.) that her clients "DON'T EVEN REQUIRE A MULTIVITAMIN." This makes sense to me. We know that on a "proper" diet, the supplement requirement would be greatly reduced. (You can imagine all the other claims, e.g. lower BP, lower cholesterol, lower blood sugar, lower weight, etc.)

I don't plan on stopping my supplements, especially the vitamin C, but I will let you all know the results of adopting one of a very few real "health eating" regimens for the modern world. (Though it ain't cheap!)

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Owen R. Fonorow, Orthomolecular Naturopath


Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:21 pm
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Post Lucyyy! You got some splaining to doooo!
No RDA for complex c?

Ascorbic acid at least gets a mention here http://www.anyvitamins.com/rda.htm#Wate ... 0Vitamins*


Why do complex c components vary?
I was unable to find specific ingredients and amounts for "real vitamin c" in the form of amla and the 51 herbs here:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... i_61585406

Quote:
Since the product that most people have come to view as vitamin C is ascorbic acid which can irritate the kidneys, bladder and intestines, side effects associated with ascorbic acid in large doses include heartburn, nausea, flatulence and diarrhea. Ascorbic acid in this form is just an intermediary for the purest or "real" vitamin C -- mineral ascorbates.


Google and Google Scholar returned only an entry for "complex c" from pubmed showing http://tinyurl.com/ykgknk
Quote:
<snip>Complex C was much less prominent in total cell extract (lane 1) than in nuclear extract (lane 2), suggesting that nuclear extracts are greatly enriched for the proteins that comprise complex C. <snip>
There was another snippet, but the point is there's very little to research.

I'm also noticing the more this is discussed the higher the Vitamin C Foundation rises in search engine results. Definitely not a wasted discussion or effort.


Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:42 am
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Post 
blueskymyne wrote:

Errrrm. thanks for clearing that up.



...And your point is?

It has been mentioned before that there are people on the planet who have diets and lifestyles that
allow them long lives and relative good health, that is not in dispute. That fact also does not conflict with the
point of this forum in general as you seem to think it does by constantly bringing them up.


Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:15 am
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Ascorbate Wizard
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Post Thanks Catherine
Thank you Catherine. We appreciate the time you are taking doing the research on the Complex.

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Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:26 am
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